Lots of things have happened since I broke with the story of the ex-lesbian ‘healing’ and Pastor Rony Tan’s assertion that homosexuality is akin to paedophilia and bestiality. I’ve been called all sorts of names on this blog and on other blogs — my favourite one is this one that suggests I’m the embodiment of the “true violent nature of homos”. Looks like my point-by-point rebuttal of what Rony Tan said flew right past someone, but that’s just too bad.
Rony Tan has also made a statement at Lighthouse Evangelism’s miracle service last week, apologising once again for his anti-Buddhist and anti-Taoist remarks, and urging his followers to “uphold religious harmony”. The pastor also said that since the eruption of the saga, his church had taken “immediate action to review our literature” and that they are now “eliminating all possible offensive recorded material from our huge catalogue”.
412 words in the speech altogether, and not a single one of it acknowledged the horrifying untruths he said about LGBT people. The ex-lesbian video, by the way, is still downloadable from Lighthouse Evangelism’s website, in case any of you are interested — the church obviously thinks it isn’t offensive and has left it on their website (so please go ahead and download it and share it with all your friends!).
But that’s not all. Latest news has it that 85 people have lodged police reports against Rony Tan for his anti-gay remarks. These 85 people include such prominent individuals as Singapore filmmakers Royston Tan and Sun Koh.
It must be noted that Rony Tan’s apology only came when the prospect of getting charged under the Sedition Act hanged over him. And when that apology finally came, it only went as far as what ISD rapped him for.
As I said in my statement to Fridae:
“The Sedition Act prohibits speech that promotes ‘feelings of ill-will and hostility between different races or classes of the population of Singapore’. This will be a good opportunity to test the government just what it means by ‘different classes’. Are sexual minorities considered a ‘class’?”
Hopefully, we’ll see a healthy debate on the public square about this. Now that the chapter has been closed on inter-religious harmony, the media spotlight can be focussed fully on Rony Tan’s (widely held) repulsive views about gay people and whether such views can be uttered out loud by people of a public stature.
But first, let’s see if the mainstream media will finally pick up on the story. I’m looking at you, Straits Times and Lianhe Zaobao.
Tags: Christianism, Christianity, gay, GLBT, lesbian, LGBT, Lighthouse Evangelism, religion, Rony Tan
Singapore’s population is on the decline. If there are more gays and lesbians around, there will be even less Singaporeans around. If gays and lesbians think they are right in what they are doing and more people should join them; it will come a day when there are no more people on this earth. Think for a moment whether this is what you want.
Real sex is between a man and a woman. Homosexuality is pretending to have sex. That is why it is unnatural and it never satisfies. If they claim satisfaction then its because either they have never enjoyed the real thing or because they have brainwashed themselves into loving the counterfeit. They get very angry when people tell them this.
Why?
It is hurting for somebody to prick their make believe balloons in which they live their lives. They create a different lifestyle and community. Left to their own this community will be barren and die out in one generation but they do not want that to happen. So what is the next thing to do? In order to survive they want to become mainstream, create alternative families styles so that they can adopt children from outside the balloon and teach those children to embrace their lifestyle. In this manner their community can survive. I am not saying they are planning this but this is the inevitable course this community would want to take.
They are a very pitiful and miserable people.They want love within brackets. But what they need is a heavy dose of reality, not the soapy, wishy washy love that they demand. Hard love that is able to poke the balloons, they are living in, so that they can realize that they are missing the real boat and are really pretending and therefore dying.
sophiasomething
Lets just pretend for arguement sake. If the GLBT want to have ‘pretend’ sex and doesnt affect you.
Why not let them pretend? Why? Too much to ask from your narrow view of religious tolerance?
Acceptance to homosexuals will make community barren and die out in 1 generation you said.
Look around you my deluded friend, overcrowding in every place imaginable these days in SG.
From MRT, buses, housing and even public toilets too!
The world is overpopulated as it is. China still has her stop at 1 policies! So please get some perspective.
Well since we speak about hardlove. Lets poke the balloon on the religious fanactics type like Rony Tan.
Going overboard is not acceptable no matter which minorities he intend to demonize.
That’s what the real pricking that’s being done recently.
The heavy doses of reality is this, are you ready?
The world does not revolve around christians only. There are other religions and other people with different belief.
[...] so many things that Rony Tan could have said when the Straits Times asked him for a response to the police reports made against him, but what did he do? He stuck to his guns, made no apology for what he said, and instead reminded [...]
The ones who write about this extinction thing couldn’t, possibly, believe in it themselves. No person is that illogical, even if they’re insane.
Let’s put aside the fact that churches, for all their loud words and finances and manpower, could not in any way establish that proof universally. Let’s, for pure hypothesis, assume that homosexuality, for the large part, is indeed adopted, or cultivated.
Pray tell me which thing, ever, in the whole history of mankind, was uniformly adopted and practiced by EVERYBODY? And within ONE generation?
Nothing man knows of remotely comes close to that. Not even Christianity, not even God. In fact, despite centuries of wars and politicking and torture and bloodshed, nothing still remotely comes close to achieving universal agreement.
So how in anybody’s sane mind can the entire race of man becomes homosexual and go extinct?
And let’s not forget one other issue. Let’s not forget the very underrated pollution of OVERPOPULATION. We’re not exactly a race of 100 pandas.
Frankly, if I need to bet money, I’ll put all of my chips on religious extremism.
This move to lodge police reports so close on the tail of the recent saga could backfire though.
The truth is, unlike Buddhists, homosexuals lack a majority in public opinion. While public opinion has been a lot kinder to them in recent times, it’s still far from a majority opinion. A police report spam unfortunately, done at this timing seems to be riding on the waves created by the Buddhist incident might backfire.
A better response would be a light-handed approach. Spamming police reports sends out the message that the attitude is a combative one… this is going to polarize society and at the end of the day guess which side the Government is going to help? I don’t think it’s the homosexuals.
Just because the other camp uses stupid and butish methods does not mean the best solution to them is to fire back a salvo.
But sitting quietly does not help either.
Silence to them means consent,
and it would be many steps backward that implies GLBT are too closeted even with their opinions.
Granted that responding to a comment as absurd as Zippy Leong’s is a complete waste of time, I would respond nonetheless as I do have time to kill on a Sunday afternoon.
Granted that homosexuals do not produce offsprings, how in the world would having a more tolerant Singapore increase the number of homosexuals to more than what is already here? I could see that if society were more tolerant, more closeted gays and lesbians will come out of the closet. But is the author Zippy actually worried that tolerance might sway some raging heteros to switch their persuasion? Or is he or she worried that he/she might be persuaded, and hence contribute the the problem of shrinking population in Singapore?
Hi Ken,
Got some referral links from this thread to my blog. Might as well link another since you are on the topic.
There are many things to consider if the gay community wants to invoke the Sedition Act. You have to realize that it cuts both ways. While you may be protected, you may lose your right to go round preaching your ideals freely. That may well mean being restricted going round publishing gay agenda in public domain (Just like some literature that may offend non-Christians, non-Muslims etc have to be restricted) . More of that in my blog here. http://bit.ly/9gCB45
As for my suggestion that you are the embodiment of the “true violent nature of homos”, I think you are just being narcissistic. I wasn’t talking about you. I was talking about the account given by the ex-lesbian in the video, what homos are capable of in their relationship.
Hi Ken,
Nobody said they had to sit quietly.
The best response is a measured response that shows maturity, spamming our police force with 85 police reports riding on the waves of a religious harmony saga would strike the public as, to put it in other words, a cheap shot.
At the end of the day, the way to adress homophobia is not to clobber it in ham-fistedly. It only entrenches opinions and polarizes soceity.
It’s one thing to say such behaviour is intolerant and ignorant, it’s another to say that a person by virtue of disagreeing with you in a ignorant way is worth of a punishment under the law. This is not a position I feel helps anybody in the long run.
Note the response of the buddhist leaders when the saga broke. They didn’t make police reports, but were instead directly and calmly correcting what they felt they were wronged in.
In the long run, extending a hand of grace and compassion towards your enemy will do far more in helping to shape public opinion towards homosexuals and encourage fair and open dialouge then trying to warn your enemies that if they said anything wrong against you they would go to jail.
Personally? I think it’s a move that ultimately harms your cause then helps it. By wanting to play hardball one changes all the rule of the game. Granted, if an ignorant pastor can be jailed for saying homosexuals are sexual deviants on the level of beastiality… then any homosexual venting his fustration against religion in an immature way is fair game for a police report. In the long run such trends do not favour your cause.
This is a whole can of worms that should not be opened. Freedom is the right of all sentient beings.
Solo bear, not sure who you refer to but i would like to volunteer a respond.
As much as i would love to re-visit your blog, i must declined.
Honestly have not the stomach for it.
Losing our rights to preach freely you say. I dont honestly see that’s even a problem. LGBT has no organized society to begin with (and i know your obsession with Aware, its a woman NGO, period).
So LGBT has never preach the ideals the likes that you have claimed.
However, its the evanglical christian who is actively preaching to everything that moves regardless the cost or method.
Rex, i am assuming you agree with Rony that homosexuals are peodophiles and zoophilias? Burden of proof is what everyone seeks from RT.
That’s the truly offensive part of his video
Nope, I do not agree with Rony Tan that homosexuals are peodophiles and zoophilias… basically he’s talking out the side of his mouth. He does our faith a great disservice acting on ignorance.
Additionally however, I do not believe that such things are worth going to war over- they do more harm then good in the long run. And for what? To feel better in the short run? Basically acting in such a way shows that the local homosexual community is going to play hardball with their opponents… and frankly I feel it sets everything back several years.
Why let the actions of an ignorant person make you take actions that ultimately harm you? The thing is this. The government likes to have a hands-off approach to this matter, they rather nobody rocks the boat. By putting them in a position that they have to take action and choose sides, they will unfortunately take action in a way that will not be favorable to you. At the end of the day our government is practical.
If forced to choose between the homosexual minority versus the conservative majority, their instrumental rationalism of economic survival and resource activation will mean that they will always side with the conservative majority at the end of the day.
As Sun Tzu said, choose your battles. The most skillful commander is the one that wins without even needing to fight. Police reports means that the local gay community is sending out the message that they are willing to use the government as an instrument and arbiter of its cause. This I feel, is a bad move that is not really well-thought out. Attacking one ignorant person and hoping to scare or lock him away will not solve anything. It will entrench opinion.
I think you should know my background. I am a Christian, and am of the conviction that homosexuality is wrong. However it is also my conviction that the way the local church has been treating homosexuals has been very much wanting. And there is much homophobia and discrimination floating around that shouldn’t be.
I came from a ultra-conservative background (my ex-church now) in which my youth pastor did spend a lot of effort on fire-and-brimstone sermons on homosexuality. Additionally he showed an incredible ignorance and insensitivity on the subject matter, bringing up wrong facts such as homosexuality not been found in the animal kingdom and passing it off as fact in his sermon. Believe me, I’ve been through the depth of Christian paranoia and ignorance on the issue. I do not find Rony Tan’s behavior shocking at all… it is the result of a certain attitude that has led to that.
But the kicker is that one of my close friends, who was a key leader in my youth pastor’s ministry turned out to be gay. And for a time he was presented as an “ex-gay” but in reality he was still struggling with his orientation, feeling the pressure to conform to my youth pastor’s expectations of him. Needless to say, the entire thing was mishandled, and the thing makes me angry to this day.
My point is, don’t assume that all Christians are homophobes or that they are in the Rony Tan format. I believe it is the right of intelligent life to self-determinate, even if I do not agree with what they are doing. It is also a Christian imperative to show compassion and love to others, and a lot of the things being done recently… AWARE, and what have you not now, lack that.
On the other hand, I also have little patience with homosexuals who show the same kind of ignorant and bigoted behaviour my more ignorant Christian peers show. No matter which camp you are in, such behaviour has no place.
That said… the problem is not that people hold different opinions on what is right and wrong… it’s how they go about EXPRESSING it.
Some opinions from one of the original proponents of the gay agenda theory in Singapore:
A Thorny Issue
The recent big blow up about Pastor Rony Tan’s highly-publicised sermon on Buddhism and Taoism, and the most recent attack on his statements on homosexuals is a reminder of the continual scrutiny and the pressure that the Church will face in the coming years. Having watched the video myself, I thought that the reaction from the public was a little excessive. But still nonetheless, we live in a multi-cultural and multi-religious society and the need to be careful and vigilant with our words is vital. I’ve been in touch with Pastor Rony via his personal assistant and Pator Rony has requested for our prayer support, for which we’re more than happy to oblige.
There are a few things we can learn from this painful ordeal. Firstly, in Acts 19, we’ve a record of a riot in the city of Ephesus. The whole city was filled with confusion against Paul and his traveling companions and they had already seized several of Paul’s companions, threatening to injure them. When the riot threatened to get out of hand, the town clerk got up to silence the crowd and look at what he said in verse 37: “For you have brought these men here who are neither robbers of temples nor blasphemers of your goddess.” This is an amazing statement because Paul, in all his preaching, did not attack or belittle any other religion. All he did was preach the everlasting Gospel because the Gospel alone is the power of God unto salvation. And that’s exactly what we need to be doing: we need to preach the unadulterated Word of God and let the Word transform lives.
There’s of course another side to this as well: When preaching the Gospel, we must not dilute, adulterate or compromise on the potency of the Word; because it’s Truth. And truth spoken in love is a very powerful weapon in God’s Hand. When Paul was in a Roman dungeon, he said something very precious; he said that while he may be in chains, God’s word cannot be chained. And that is the truth. In Acts 4, we find the disciples being hauled in for preaching the Gospel and they were threatened by the religious order of their day to cease preaching. Peter, with unusual boldness said: “Whether it is right to listen to you more than God, you judge. For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.” Such boldness is contagious and God-breathed. After that, we’ve an account of a prayer meeting the disciples had and as they prayed for boldness to speak the word of God, God answered by shaking the place they were gathered in and the disciples were all filled with uncommon valor. What’s the conclusion then? Let’s be sensitive; let’s be careful; but let’s not compromise on the truth.
Pastor Yang Tuck Yoong
20 Feb 2010
Zippy Leong’s ignorance, Sophia’s close-minded assumptions amaze me.
Gays and Lesbians have been around since there were people around - history records this and is apparent to all with a mind open enough to see it - yet humanity’s numbers have swelled unceasingly to 6.8 billion. If indeed gays and lesbians cause a drop in population, then you should thank us for helping with overpopulation. If you are so concerned with humanity dying out, then just have more babies, especially since hetrosex is so much more enjoyable than homosex.
In any case, statistical reports and surveys show that the drop in Singapore’s population and in most developed countries is due to women marrying later, having less babies and at a later time because of their own reasons such as career, education and the high costs of living. How then do you hypocritically attribute this to gays and lesbians not having children? Humanity’s pithy hate crimes and religious wars have killed more people than any other wars on earth - why not look to that first?
Sophia: I also wonder how you speak with such conviction - have you tried having sex with someone of the same gender before? If so, how would you know that it never satisfies?
“Left to their own this community will be barren and die out in one generation..” Then leave us to our own and let us die out, if that is what you truly believe, instead of waging your war of words and policies on us. If we are truly a dying people then you fear nothing from us, then what is with the generations of hate-preaching from your leaders?
“religious wars have killed more people than any other wars on earth”
Actually that is untrue. The idealogy that killed the highest number of people is not religion, but communism with a bodycount of over 149 million people since 1918. This idealogy completely outmatches all the number of people killed in religious wars, and all within a period of 100 years!
Be good to check your facts before you say something.
Cheers.
Death tolls are estimations and always carry a minimum and maximum figure. They also state whether it’s purely the armed conflicts themselves, or inclusive of the extended effects. What’s yours, Rex?
It’s just like Hiroshima. Is the Hiroshima death toll just those who died immediately or within a few days, or inclusive of the cancer victims who suffered (much longer) and died much later?
Rex:
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstats.htm
http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002/10/how-many-people-have-been-killed-by.php
In actual fact: 809 million people have died in religious wars throughout history, whereas some combined 62 million died during WW2, and 209 million died in the name of Communism. Religious wars have killed more people than the World Wars and Communism combined.
You may argue regarding the time frame, but I am judging from cause, and in any case, to quote from the second author, “As can be seen from these events, to Christianity the Dark Ages never come to an end.”
The author from the first link I provided have quoted an extensive bibliography which you can check out, while the other has provided an event-by-event research stating total body count.
This is what would happen if religious factions are allowed to rage out of control and is what the authorities are trying to prevent. Petty religious leaders who preach hate and unforgiveness instead of compassion and acceptance continue to perpetuate hate crimes and intolerance.
Rony Tan - I am not going to grace him with the title of ‘Pastor’ - is one such example, who is ugly both inside and out. He is free to believe in what he believes and to fight for his faith, but there are better ways to do it. What does he hope to gain from ridiculing any and all who are different from him, instead of preaching on love, acceptance, kindness and doing that which is good, which is the ultimate tenet of any religion? Rather, he spouts lies and half-truths, mocking that which he himself despises, behaving in a manner which I would be ashamed to see in a 15 year old, not to say a ‘respected’ man of the cloth - and lastly, to take a leaf from the Bible, Jesus died for the sins of self-righteous men like him.
I am aware of these sources, but a simple death toll is not a good way to measure lethality. Judging from case-to-case is not very useful if one does not consider the factors between the case, if not one has no context to understand any figures by. The example from communism is extremely apt, if one considers how it relates to the death toll of other ideas.
Judging from cause it’s not a very good way to measure it- precisely because lethality is not just a measure of how many people killed, but how effective an idea is at killing people.
For example, to take a leaf from disease, malaria kills millions of people a year. However in terms of lethality it can be managed. Superflu or Ebola fever on the other hand, is another thing entirely, they are far, far more lethal then malaria. In terms of threat to human survival, despite the higher gross malaria death rate, an outbreak of superflu or Ebola would be far more dangerous, and significant.
149 million in less then a century is a jump in killing rate that has never been matched in the history of man, even accounting for the increased human population and lethality of our weapons.
At the end of the day, I do not believe it its religion that kills people- history has demostrated that ideas and extremisim in any for can. Religion is hardly the most extreme of ideas that a human can have- unless of course, it has been utilized so.
This focus on religion as the “root of all evil”, is unfortunately a red herring. Any human, if so enabled, will be willing to do extremely evil things for ANY idea. The problem with blaming religion is that one absolves the individual human responsibility for atrocity and blames it on an idea… when the responsibility lies with the individual to make his own moral choices. People may give you stupid ideas, but you do not need to follow them.
Additionally the second source you quoted is kinda dodge. He’s tacking each and every single death onto Christianity as long as it is even vaugely related without accounting for the political, economic and ethnic reasons and contexts. The Rwanda massacre is an extremely bad example. Basically if any group that is even vaugely identified as Christian even if they act 100 miles out of their the values of their faith and only show a nonimal affiliation to their faith… is judged to be a case of religious violence?
I don’t think that’s a good way of judging things, at least not rationally. A Singaporean Christian Chinese man commits a robbery because he had no more money to feed his family… is that the result of nationalism? Religious violence? A racial crime? Or because of economic factors?
In contrast, the killings in the name of communism were clearly done for the idealogy of class-struggle and removing undesirables in the population.
It’s not enough to present figures, one needs to comprehend them as well.
Even if you go on a case by case basis, that is clear.
At the end of the day, my point is to point out that it is largely unhelpful to toss out figures like this. One needs to evaluate their ideas and beliefs on their own merits.
Valid and good ideas, improperly understood can lead to wrong results, it does not mean the ideas themself are invalid. Ideas, religious or secular, can both be abused.
Abusus non tollit usum- Wrong use does not preclude proper use
My point is, saying that Christians are inherently bigots or violent in nature is about as useful as saying Homosexuals are pretty much peodophiles and zoophiles… utterly unhelpful in evaluating anything that is of use or discussion.
I believe they are called fighting words.
Statistics, even if presented to you in the face, can vastly deceive. One example is the frequently quoted MOH finding that HIV infection is more prevalent among homosexual men, which in turn leads to the supposition that homosexuality is inherently destructive, dangerous, and healthy.
But to properly interpret this finding, one must also ask, was everyone tested on a “ceteris parabus” platform? Is the heterosexual population as forecoming and as active in testing for HIV, compared to the homosexual population? Given that organization, like some churches, still propagate the idea that HIV is a gay disease, could the finding be because heterosexual people do not test for HIV as rigourously? Besides, with homosexuals being such a small minority, as frequently said, even if they have three/four times the likelihood of infection, when you extend that to the much larger heterosexual population, the percentage of heterosexual infection is much higher. Numerically speaking.
To extrapolate, it is definitely true not all Christians are bigots or activists or extremists. Embracing and acknowledging this though, does not in any way discount the fact that there is a sizable force, and number, of Christians actively persecuting and maligning anyone not aligned with them. We have seen how they condemn gays, atheists, banks, companies, press, government, and other religions in Singapore, within the last two years. So really, the deal is, there is a problem. It’s a festering problem. We need to deal with it.
We especially need to deal with it, because unfortunately, the bulk of non-bigoted, non-extremist Christians in Singapore, always chose not to check their brethen in every case. The repercussion of this becomes that others need to step in, to defend themselves, and this is reaction to provocation, not persecution.
Rex
The death toll is also subjective. When Hitler purge the Jews and etc from Germany, he called himself ‘The Aryan Christ’ and borrowed heavily from Chrstian (catholic) elements. That death toll should/could be counted among religion war (or in the name of religion).
Just do a reference to Nazi and christianity in Wiki, and you know what i meant.
But i do agree with you that extremisn, and NOT just religion alone is the greatest evil.
However, i do believe the police report lodged is a milestone reached.
Its shows that GLBT no longer tolerated the discrimination and persecution that was endured in silence so often in the past. Obviously the 85 of them do not fear ‘arrest’ or other consequence from lodging the police report against RT.
I have nothing but admiration for those that did what i could not.
To many that dont agree with RT on homosexuality, its a battle won.
Jesus taught us all to love our neighbours as ourselves and he demonstrated it so clearly during his brief life here. It is interesting that Jesus found more affinity with the marginalised than with the rich and powerful. Jesus loves all: from gays and lesbians to lawyers, bankers and even Class 95 djs. Churches must be more loving in their sharing, teaching and approach to the world, otherwise, we are no different from the world.
I am afraid you are wrong Ken, most historians would resent your definition of the Nazis as a religious party and WW2 as a religious war. Racial, prehaps.
Hitler didn’t just borrow from Christianity, he quite basically borrowed any idea that allowed him to manipulate others. His key idealogy was racial, not religious. You are really stretching your points… which actually echos the reasoning Rony Tan uses to tie homosexuality with peodophila and zoophila.
Anything could be counted in the name of religion if you are vauge enough with what is religion… in fact some consider communism religious as well due to their focus on a personality cult.
But in the end if a definition is so vauge, it is useless. If everything that could be loosely defined as “religious” is chucked under religious conflict and war, the term is a catch-all that means pretty much nothing. And mostly unhelpful.
Don’t you think it’s ironic that you criticize Rony Tan… and then use his very logic on Christians?
Mythbuster: Actually Christians are often much victims of their more extremist peers as well. I’ve seen it happen before, plenty of times. Some churches have a thought-police. Often nothing explict but simply going against the grain will entail a lot of social isloation and what have you not. But that’s another story.
And is it easy? Ultimately the sad fact of the day is that the state of the local church is one in which many of the members have a cushy, protected lifestyle that rarely ventures beyond the four walls of the church. They are culturally ignorant and see no need to engage or understand secular culture, seeing such pursuits as running the risk of affecting their “purity”. They are afraid to question, to think, and some even think that being intellectual is a weakness. They are dependent on their leaders to feed them their convictions and worldview, they adopt the convictions of the ministry, but lack their own true convictions.
Is it any surprise that stuff like AWARE and this will happen? So many of us have become so culturally irrelevant to our society that we do not know how to engage it except through these means.
Rex:
Pardon me for being frank. If Christians, particular those here in SG, are so to speak victims of their extremist counterparts, they have only themselves to blame.
Extremism and intolerance indeed spread like wildfire. But still, it doesn’t happen OVERNIGHT. The state the Singaporean Christian community is in is because for far too long, the moderate, the uncomfortable ones, chose to keep quiet. Whether it’s for safety in numbers, an unwillingness to differentiate one’s own self, groupthink, or a matter of pride, their silent endorsement was the strongest support the extremists ever received.
In fact, what disturbed me most about this Rony Tan incident is, till ISD stepped in, NONE of the churches reacted. NCCS was absolutely silent. NCCS was still silent until a few days after ISD came in.
Why?
Rex,
Hitler’s action is without arguement racially driven, but without religion as his disposal, do you think he would
be as successful. We are talking about using religion as an weapon, which is exactly what Hitler and countless others
in history did.
My point is simply this, religion in the hand of extremist or (deluded fools/egomaniacs) are extremely dangerous.
(and it doesnt need 2 religions to create that kind sort of devastation).
Finally how is NCCS relevant? Their approach is not that dissimilar to what’s RT/LE has done.
(Look at the other post on this blog, and some of its member churches have the same approach in their ministry)
Another strange argument. History does not bear your facts out.
Hitler didn’t need religion to suceed. The primary driving force behind the nazi’s rise to power was nationalism and aryan idealogy. Hitler prefered to manipulate the church, but could have done as well without them. He simply chose the easier option of perverting them to his purposes, as any politican would do.
As I said, your focus on religion is narrow-minded. Any idealogy, not just religion can be utilized. Under Nazism, homosexuality had no place and homosexuals were routinely persceuted. The persceution of homosexuals under Nazi germany had no religious grounds at all, it was entirely racial:
“In the 1920s, homosexual people in Germany, particularly in Berlin, enjoyed a higher level of freedom and acceptance than anywhere else in the world. However, upon the rise of Adolf Hitler, gay men and, to a lesser extent, lesbians, were two of the numerous groups targeted by the Nazi Party and were ultimately among Holocaust victims. Beginning in 1933, gay organizations were banned, scholarly books about homosexuality, and sexuality in general, were burned, and homosexuals within the Nazi Party itself were murdered. The Gestapo compiled lists of homosexuals, who were compelled to sexually conform to the “German norm”.
An estimated 1.2 million men were homosexual in Germany in 1928 (6% of men over the age of 20). Between 1933-45, an estimated 100,000 men were arrested as homosexuals, of which some 50,000 were officially sentenced. Most of these men served time in regular prisons, and an estimated 5,000 to 15,000 of those sentenced were incarcerated in concentration camps. It is unclear how many of the 5,000 to 15,000 eventually perished in the camps, but leading scholar Ruediger Lautman believes that the death rate of homosexuals in concentration camps may have been as high as 60%. Homosexuals in the camps were treated in an unusually cruel manner by their captors, and were also persecuted by their fellow inmates. This was a factor in the high death rate for homosexuals, compared to other groups.”
Is religion involved in the persceution of homosexuals by the Communists?
“Homosexuality went underground after the formation of the People’s Republic of China. The communist regime persecuted homosexuals, especially during the Cultural Revolution, when many gays were subject to public humiliation, assault, long prison terms, or execution. Societal tolerance towards homosexuality decreased. Since the policy of Reform and Opening Up in 1979, the communist party has been loosening its control over this issue. But the profile of homosexuality was libeled as a “moldering life style of capitalism”. Confucian morality and communist puritanism both frowned on homosexuality. The Chinese Classification and Diagnostic Criteria of Mental Disorders still listed homosexuality as a kind of mental disorder as of 1994.”
Ideas, given the right environment, can create destruction. I have no idea why you choose to focus only on religion when recent history has shown that you don’t need the religious to kill far more people at a rate that has never been seen before in human history.
In fact, I have no doubt that homosexuals, if the tables were ever reversed, would more likely then not act the same way. This is simply human nature.
And the precise reason I think the police reports are a bad idea, simply because they are an expression of a certain dangerous attitude… that the game of relations with those who do not share our views will always be an antagonistic struggle.
Mythbuster-
To be frank, in human nature… do you think the geek, or the jock gets his way in the end? What makes you think the moderates have not been speaking? Or is it that they have to deal with both kinds of intolerance? Both from their own peers and from homosexuals?
How do you convince someone who instantly sees any sort of sympathy with those outside the faith as an instant heretic? There is a serious issue with group-thinking hero-worshipping religion, no doubt about it. But blaming those who struggle against the system for not doing enough? Why don’t you walk a mile in their shoes first?
How would I know why NCSS do what they did? I do not speak for them. I only know what I see on the ground.
It’s like blaming moderate muslims for islamic extremism, without accounting for the fact that many of them were born into their culture, struggle against it, and face many risks in doing so.
It’s hard to be vocal as a moderate when somebody will put a bullet in your head, or in your case, simply ignore you. I see the current defects of the church as a natural consquence of having IGNORED their moderates and gone over to an isloated frame of mind.
Rex:
Before you defend further, I advise you to do a wordtrack of the following words/phrases, on the sermons of the activist churches:
chosen
champion
warrior
guardian
defender
special
different
saved
moral vanguard
messenger
Do a track on these words, for example on Yang Tuck Yoong’s sermons, and then ponder on the frequency.
I’ve done that long ago. I didn’t come to much conclusion until late, but I did get one impression. The impression that pastors nowadays spend more time glorifying their congregations, than glorifying their God.
And what does this translate into? I don’t know. Could it be these congregations are less about worship, but more about adopting a special identity? Could congregations be fed so much flattery, that they actually start to believe in it wholesale, and fallen into addiction? Could minds become so in need of such delusions that one will resist law and conscious just to maintain the fantasy?
Again, I’m not sure. But every anti-gay, anti-government, anti-everything message written by a Christian online NEVER falls out of the realms of, “I’m a Christian, I’m special. I will only be judged by my God. All of you will regret when the time comes.”
You interpret that yourself.
And Rex, I do remind you of something. This is Singapore.
One of the most advanced, peaceful, lawful cities in the entire world and in history.
A city in which we teach our young, from birth, the necessity and virtue of obeying the national law.
This is not some wild desert limbo. We don’t stone women. We don’t flog people for conversion. We also don’t burn people at the stakes. We don’t have warrior tribes defending with machetes Tampines or Ang Mo Kio.
I.E. It is easy to follow and obey the law.
So, the foremost duty of any Singaporean, is his/her duty to the country. Should they detect, for example, a deliberately seditious activity, such as Rony Tan’s videos, their first duty is to report it. Or, if they possess some position of relevance or authority, to restrain it. There is no violent repercussion. The only after effect is a possible loss of this glorious Christian identity, and some presumed friends.
Now we look at NCCS, they didn’t do their duties to the nation that supports them. Despite all the statements and promises and wows to maintain religious harmony.
Look at the 12000++ guardlighters. They didn’t do their duties to the country that gave them a safe habitat to indulge themselves. Instead, they laughed and clapped at statements that would destroy the nation.
Why did they do that? I wonder.
As for your admonishment of not walking-a-mile-in-their-shoes, let me give a testimonial too. I’ve walked hundreds of miles for thirty years as one of them, until I decided there is no benevolent God at the end of the road. So I decided to start walking in another direction. And that was that. Clean and simple. Plus, you know what, all those I’ve ever walked with, none of them ever displayed the kind of conflict you described. Those who really wanted to go away, left, and were unharrassed, because this is Singapore. Law is strong and protective. Those who stayed on, stayed on happily, indulging deeper and deeper into their fantasies of championship and human superiority, till they absolutely cannot life an hour without imagining themselves as different from their neighbours. Nobody had any internal conflict.
Because everyone has the ability to deny or walk away. It’s only a question of whether you want to.
And really, we are all talking in a Singapore context. So to be accurate, it’s not RELIGION that’s persecuting homosexuals and everyone else. It’s the US inspired Protestant evangelists. They chose the easiest targets of GLBTs to start with, and now they try to assault everyone else.
And all these talks of being fair, sparing a thought for the presumed moderates, communism etc, doesn’t alter the FACT that the nation is repeatedly challenged by a group of wild, unrestrained activists who all think they can call down lightning from the skies. The threat is so critical, the Head of Government has to step in twice to control it.
My gentle suggestion to you, switch your focus elsewhere. And start pondering too about when it is YOUR turn.
I don’t understand why we are arguing about whether Hitler killed people due to religion or skin colour. I had mentioned religious wars killing people as a counter-point to sophia/zippy’s posts about gay people decreasing the population.
Whether Hitler killed people based on religion on skin colour, it is nonetheless still extremism - which is what is being displayed by Rony Tan.
My friend who used to be one of the faithful, I might even say, fanatical congregation of Lighthouse Evangelist, told me that RT has been doing it for years, just that no one outside of the congregation knew. Imagine being poisoned by the likes of this man for years and years.
No wonder there exists extreme prejudice against “other types” even in Singapore, where the government and people strive for harmony amidst a slew of different races, beliefs and culture and where the least discord would prove devastating. No wonder people like RT, the Thio shrews and their lackeys, Josie Lau and FOTF have the run of the mill. Nothing has been done or voiced to show that they can’t do exactly as they please to other groups of people, and hence their loud, harsh words and loud, harsh actions.
The only difference that matters, to me, is that RT is not in a position of power to put us in concentration camps.
A fact: The Oppressors love to demonize GLBT
Another fact: Most These Oppressive Cases arise from the Christian/Catholic Church or more widely, the Abrahamic faith.
The Oppressors love to wax lyrical about the ‘Gay Agenda’. What the hell is the Gay Agenda? Like there’s a worldwide conspiracy among GLBT to seduce the Pope and take over the Vatican City or to turn all your husbands and sons into ass lovers and your daughters into Hells Angels.
If, Rex, as you say, that even among your own kind you face intolerance, then imagine what others face. You and your family and friends aren’t being called paedolphiles and mules and monkeys and have it published for the world to see! Don’t ask us to walk in your shoes, walk in OURS.
Rex
Then we can agree that religion is easily manipulated, which is what we see in RT case.(That’s my point all along).
This is why there’s a urgent need for separation of religion and state. (Secularism, which does not automatically meant altheism).
////In fact, I have no doubt that homosexuals, if the tables were ever reversed, would more likely then not act the same way. This is simply human nature.///
Really? how do you come to this conclusion? Based on which precedent?
From the US?
So far all we see the struggle is pretty much one sided, and its not the LGBT crying for the blood of these so-called Christians.
Singapore has always been a secular nation, the seperation of Church and State is enforced by the government, believe me. I highly doubt even if they wanted, that Christian dominionist can take over the nation. They are simply too far removed from normal soceity to be really credible in politics. Additionally they aren’t really good at convincing anybody, so you don’t have to worry.
I come to this conclusion that I do not think LGBTs will behave differently for the simple reason that they are human. Extremists strains of thought exist in LGBT circles as well. Given enough extremist support, any idealogy can and will be perverted.
In fact it is the norm for any group to have their radicals.
At the end of the day I believe this: that each and every person should have their space to self-determinate as much as possible.
“If, Rex, as you say, that even among your own kind you face intolerance, then imagine what others face. You and your family and friends aren’t being called paedolphiles and mules and monkeys and have it published for the world to see! Don’t ask us to walk in your shoes, walk in OURS.”
Quite simply, you can ignore them. You don’t have to live with them day in and day out. You can have your own friends who share your creed. You don’t have them breathing down your neck all the time.
Their comments hardly harm you, if anything it harms them more the it harms you, revealing the depth of their ignorance to the world. Not trying to be insensitive here, but largely the only reason they seem to cause damage to you is because you are making them credible by responding to them in that way.
Sometimes the best reply is simply to be ignored.
Not so for the lot of us who are stuck with them in the same community. Believe me, you haven’t seen HALF of the things I’ve seen and what they actually do.
So yes, walk in our shoes, or at the very least those of my gay friends who are in the church.
If there are such unspeakable things ongoing, that even in anon. comments that they cannot be mentioned, then I think it’s time for the police to step in.
“Their comments hardly harm you..”
Rex, you ask me to turn a blind eye to words and deeds that ultimately cause such laws as 377a, gay bashing, bullying and other forms of discrimination? Words that cause belief in conversion groups, words that call for the public to despise gays and treat them with contempt?
I will not. You may find it easy, or else it is easy for you to say, but it is not easy nor is it right to turn my face away from lies that tarnish us.
“Not so for the lot of us who are stuck with them in the same community.”
What irony! You are not ’stuck’ with them in the same community. You have the choice to walk away, and then ignore them as you like. Those of us who are not part of your community are the ones ’stuck’ to the discrimination, distrust and contempt that arise from these lies. They follow us on the internet, in newspapers, through the laws and the groups that support them and dog our actions and everyday life.
“You don’t have to live with them day in and day out. You can have your own friends who share your creed. You don’t have them breathing down your neck all the time… Not so for the lot of us who are stuck with them in the same community. Believe me, you haven’t seen HALF of the things I’ve seen and what they actually do.”
If, it is as hard as you describe, to live in such a community, then why continue? It puts to question what your loyalty to your creed is composed of, exactly. Is it fear or peer pressure? Or the need to conform, or social status? If it is as bad as you say, that you have seen things that I would find hard to believe then you probably also know that it is not right. So why continue to show support for what you know is wrong?
Rex: RT as a supposed ’spiritual leader’ has done nothing but promote hate and divisiness. This incident by itself is one fine example. I encourage you to take a look at the STOMP posts and comments made by some of your brethren: http://singaporeseen.stomp.com.sg/stomp/sgseen/this_urban_jungle/323340/pastor_rony_tan_makes_waves_again.html#commentSection
Some choice examples:
“judicial said on 21 Feb, 2010 Report as offensive
i don kmow why some stupid ppl support gays…being gay is sin…. all gays must die… I HATE GAYS”
“kensankah said on 22 Feb, 2010 Report as offensive
If all gays or lesbians are normal and consider natural then mankind population had already ended thousands years ago!! It is totally unacceptable by ALL religions !!! Those gays or lesbain pls wake up your Fxxking ideals !If your mother father is gay or les, you bastxxd will not be typing here !!!”
“Gaostriker said on 22 Feb, 2010 Report as offensive
Gays have no future…its disgusting when I think about two people of the same gender doing the “couple thing”…….eeeeeeeee totally disgusting!!!! Hey GAYS!!!! READ THIS GAYS HAVE NO FUTURE!!!! Pui!”
These are the hidden sentiments of the supporters of Rony Tan, brought to the surface by this maelstrom. I refuse to act like an ostrich and bury my head in the sand, as Rex had suggested, and wait for witch-hunters to knock on my door one day and realise that the world is filled my condemners and haters. I refuse to sit and wait for a world where entrapment of gay people are the norm and men are jailed for having sex with other men on a routine basis and people believe that sexual preference is a ‘choice’ and submit themselves to conversion therapy to ‘turn’ straight.
As I read these comments, it is even more shocking to note HOW many people actually despise gay people deep down. I always knew that a lot of people did, but it is another thing to SEE it your own eyes and feel it.
What is worse for me, other than these crass idiots, are the more reasonable people and how many of these people actually believe that homosexuality is not an inborn trait; it is a ‘lifestyle’ choice and they say things like, ‘well, RT should not have said such things in such a degrading manner, the homos made their choice and even though it’s wrong, forgive them..”
These people will never get it through their heads that most of us are born with the gene and only a small handful make the conscious choice.
So someone makes comments that upset a group of people and the offended group wants those saying the offending remarks to be arrested. It appears that Singapore has a relatively vocal facist group of people living there. A woman who was once a lesbian and now is not has every right to convey both her feelings and experiences to anyone who is willing to listen or read. If someone is offended by it, they do not have to read or listen to it. The author of this article is obviously an emotionally unstable gay guy.