UPDATE: Pastor Rony Tan: “I’ve said nothing wrong, you know.”
These three video clips have whipped up something of a firestorm in Singapore over the last few days. They feature Singapore’s very own wonder working miracle healer Pastor Rony Tan of the 12,000 strong megachurch Lighthouse Evangelism making some very incendiary remarks about Buddhism and Taoism at his church’s weekly miracle services. In the videos, an ex-monk by the name of Joseph Wee and a former nun by the name of Rita are seen on stage sharing their testimonies of how they came to Christianity with Rony Tan — who then goes on to suggest that ideas like reincarnation, nirvana and the chanting of mantras were all “rubbish”, “nonsensical” and satanic, drawing laughter from his audience as he did so. Someone didn’t like what he saw on the website of Lighthouse Evangelism, ripped off the videos and then uploaded the videos onto Youtube, charging that the pastor should be prosecuted for seditious speech.
On Monday, the Internal Security Department visited Rony Tan to tell him that his comments were “highly inappropriate and unacceptable as they trivialised and insulted the beliefs of Buddhists and Taoists” and reminded him that “in preaching or proselytising his faith, he must not run down other religions, and must be mindful of the sensitivities of other religions.” The same evening, Pastor Tan issued a public apology on the website of his church and the next morning, he paid a visit to the Phor Kar See Kong Meng San Temple to apologise in person to the Secretary-General of the Singapore Buddhist Federation Venerable Kwang Sheng, and later to the Taoist Federation chairman Tan Thiam Lye, assuring them that the same thing would not happen again.
Between Monday and Tuesday, the web department of Lighthouse Evangelism also appears to have been hard at work, removing all other videos that may further put them under the uncomfortable spotlight of the media from their Miracle TV mini-site. Well, they have taken down so many videos that as of now, the one lone video on their Miracle TV site is a testimony of a couple telling of the miraculous healing of their marriage. (Does anyone here have marital problems? Please bring yourself to Lighthouse Evangelism’s Tampines or Woodlands “Healing Centre” this Saturday evening to receive a miracle touch for your marriage.)
One video that was on the homepage — yes, the homepage — of lighthouse.org.sg has disappeared altogether. It features the testimony of a certain Cheryl Bachelor, a part-time employee of Lighthouse Evangelism who claims to have been healed from lesbianism. This video has been there on the website of Lighthouse Evangelism for at least months, but within a day of the ISD’s visit, the video was taken down. Fortunately when I saw it again on Monday night, I decided to rip it. Here it is in all its 80-minute glory:
Pastor Rony starts off civilly enough, saying that he is not against homosexual people at all. The “sin of homosexuality”, he adds, is “no more serious than the sins of theft or adultery” (makes you wonder why he doesn’t conduct miraculous healings for these sins, but I digress), but from then on, it goes rapidly downhill all the way. He tells of a CrimeWatch story in which a “dirty old man” seduced little boys for sex and then used the story to suggest that:
- homosexuals are not born this way (“Don’t believe all those loud-mouthed gay people who tell you they are born this way”, he says);
- people end up “turning” gay because of abuse and/or an absent parent (although there is a “tiny percentage” who are truly born this way because of a “genetic problem”, he concedes);
- “If we don’t warn people against this, then there will be more and more homosexuals” because “many of these people will be harrassing and seducing young boys, and they in turn will become homosexuals” and then very soon, God forbid, “half the world will be homosexual”!
- “Proper sex means life — it propagates life. Lesbianism and homosexuality simply mean death and barrenness.”
- As if equating gay people with paedophiles wasn’t enough, he goes on to compare gay people with those that practise bestiality (“If you allow [homosexuality], next time people will want to get married to monkeys. And they will want rights. They’ll want to apply for HDB. With a donkey or a monkey or a dog and so on. It’s very pathetic.”)
I’m not going to go into all the details of Cheryl Bachelor’s story right now but in a nutshell, it’s one whole convoluted life story which was very convenient to the pastor in his portrayal of gay people as pathological creatures with dysfunctional families, victims of sexual abuse, abusers of drugs and alcohol, insecure and possessive individuals — you get the picture.
By Rony Tan’s own admission, he’s no expert in homosexuality. He is neither a trained psychologist, nor has he read what leading lights in the field have said about a very complex subject, but yet in the 80 or so minutes of the video, he sure does sound like a know-it-all.
Let me take the opportunity to correct some of the misinformation that Pastor Tan has propagated above:
1. Sexologists may disagree on the percentage of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) people in the general population but the range lies somewhere between 3 to 10%.
2. LGBT people exist in every culture, in every country, in every social context. There are no exceptions. The percentage of LGBT people in the general population will NOT increase because society is more permissive towards them. Neither will it decrease because society is oppressive towards them.
3. Homosexuality is innate. It’s not a condition that can be “passed around”. Neither is it a disease that can be spread to epidemic proportions (Just look at Holland. Rony Tan’s doomsday prediction of half the population turning gay hasn’t happened yet.). I can’t “convert” you to homosexuality anymore than you can “convert” me to heterosexuality.
Trained psychologists and yes, even leaders within Christian “ex-gay” ministries that believe it’s possible to “pray the gay away” will tell you to be careful NOT to confuse homosexuals with paedophiles or bestialists but what do you hear Christian pastors teaching their flock? I assure you it’s not just superstar pastors like Rony Tan and Rick Warren who will so readily equate homosexuality with incest, paedophilia, bestiality and polygamy. These ideas are prevalent among ordinary, average pastors, many of whom are in dire needs of a basic education in psychology.
Oh, while we’re on the subject of paedophilia, the Straits Times reported half a year ago that an elder of Lighthouse Evangelism was jailed for two weeks and fined $16,000 for twice procuring the sexual services of an underaged female prostitute from mainland China. Yes, as any sexologist will tell you: most paedophiles are heterosexual, not homosexual. But do pastors rail against heterosexual paedophiles the same way they do against homosexual paedophiles? No.
So what’s my point in uploading this video? Do I think that ISD will call Rony Tan again and rap him for his comments on gay people? Not a chance. And I’m certainly not holding my breath. Gay people aren’t a protected class and in Singapore, you are welcome to discriminate against and demonise them as you wish.
Rony Tan’s comments are really just the tip of the iceberg of what goes on in Singapore churches on a weekly basis. You don’t have to look further than Lighthouse Evangelism’s empty Miracle TV page now to see that: Take away all the offensive comments regarding Buddhists, Taoists, gay people, and any other section of the populace and you find that there’s really nothing else left.
It is time that we held church pastors and other faith leaders to higher levels of accountability for what they say in the name of God. It is time Christians (especially those attending megachurches with larger-than-life CEO senior pastors) realised that questioning your pastor doesn’t make you an infidel, it will provide you with an opportunity to strengthen your faith. Correcting your pastor when he’s clearly wrong is the right thing to do — he’s not infallible or omniscient (even if he may sound like a know-it-all or claim to have the “word of knowledge”).
Make no mistake about it — the words of scripture have been used throughout the ages to set people free, but they have also been used throughout the ages to keep people bound. Once upon a time, the idea of geocentrism (that the sun revolved around the earth) was church doctrine. Theologians and church fathers spent a lot of their time and energy defending from scripture the theory that the earth was fixed in its position (Ps 93:1, Ps 96:10, Ps 104:5, 1 Chr 16:30, Ecc 1:5), and to believe anything other than this was pure heresy and put you in grave danger of excommunication. In 1610, Galileo Galilei published a series of observations that he made with his new telescope that supported Copernicus’ theory of heliocentrism. That at once placed him at odds with the church and after a long and drawn out struggle over 23 years, an Inquisition examination found him guilty of heresy. He was placed under house arrest for the rest of his life (he was 70 then) and his books were banned. It took the church one century after Galileo’s death before his complete works were finally allowed to be republished (and not without some censorship) and almost another whole century before all traces of official Church opposition to heliocentrism were finally dropped. But yet, today, believe it or not, modern day geocentrists still exist, and they are all either Christians (mostly Catholics) or Jews.
The Bible has also been used to defend slavery. You don’t have to look too hard to see the plethora of references to slavery in the Old and New Testaments. Starting with the book of Genesis, slavery was given foundational justification — the curse of Ham left his defendants to perpetual captivity. In the New Testament, Paul writes in his first letter to Timothy, “Let as many slaves as are under the yoke count their own master worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, but rather do them service.”
I can go on and on about the people who have used the Bible to oppose women’s rights, to oppose the idea of mixed marriages, to oppose the idea of evolution and how church leaders have used the harshest methods to deal with the “heretics” who didn’t toe the church doctrine.
Sure, today we can stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before us, and ask how the church leaders before our time could have gotten it all so wrong but as we do so, we must not forget that there are similar challenges for the Christians of today — homosexuality is one such challenge, global warming is another.
If Christians today choose to operate in a vacuum, looking at these issues without paying heed to what scientists are telling us, then they can only be doomed to repeat the mistakes of those who have gone before them.
Go ahead. Continue to use the Bible to clobber at gay people.
Go ahead. Continue to proof from the Bible that the world is just 5000 years old.
Go ahead. Continue to believe that global warming or evolution doesn’t exist.
You will find yourself left behind at the end of the day. And believe you me, I’m not talking about the Rapture here.
Tags: Catholicism, Christianism, Christianity, Galileo, gay, GLBT, homosexuality, lesbianism, LGBT, Lighthouse Evangelism, Rony Tan, science
I can’t say it better. I’ll let the attachment say it for me. See how the Church is not a force for good in the world. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3DVJRoUYIE
My God…assuming that there is 100 or so people watching this nonsense…my heart goes out for the 3 to 10 gay people in the audience. I assume people attend church to achieve some peace and enjoy the fellowship and love of their fellow seekers and christians…I feel bad for the gay people subjected to this kind of hateful ignorant nonsense.
Definitely not just 100. Lighthouse’s miracle services attract several thousands in Woodlands and Tampines. And probably many more on their website.
Thanks for uploading the videos…it goes to show how Rony Tan and many other prophets have spread false ideas about the other peaceful religions, and now the LGBT community. They are fearful of changes and different ways of life, in turn influenced others to be like them too in the name of GOD . If their healing is so miraculous….why ain’t they focusing on more urgent issues like global warming, cancer, violence, gambling, corruption among charitable / religious /business organisations..etc!
Dear Kenneth i understand the hurt and rejected feelings both in your heart and all gay people. Its indeed a shame to see how the church in general made many mistakes through out its period till now.
This clearly shows that the church and individuals like Rony Tan are not perfect people but sinners who only was forgiven and saved by the grace of God. They sometimes forget that and speak as if they are perfect and put down others with pride in them. They become insensitive to others who are different from them.
The New testament teachings are against sin and not sinners. All have sinned and come short the glory of the Lord. But God in His mercy is willing to forgive us thru the Lord Jesus Christ and transform our lives.
Sin can be anything that violates God’s commandments and His teachings including nature. No one sin is greater then the other. I dont agree why the church leaders in general should keep highlighting one sin higher then the other.
Both by nature and by God’s word we see that our sexual life is between a man and a woman. If we look at our genitals and other sexual organs in our body we see that they are designed to function between a woman and a man. And sex was intended within the marriage(husband and wife).
If we change the order of natural use we not only violate God’s word but also violate nature. Thus it can bring about damage to the human race. It will also stop our procreation order. Just like we are deeply concern with global warming due to bad habits and abuse of nature.
I do not condone to attacks, persecution and humiliation done to gay people by leaders of the church using the pulpit in the name of God. There are enough sins and hypocrises in the church which the church leaders need to clean it out first.
However, we must warn the people of the dangers in coming against the order of nature whether things related to global warming or sexual misuse.
Its not a matter of sexual preference but its a matter related to nature and what it may cost to the world. Gay life is getting popular and more and more people are getting to it. Lets look seriously what damage its going to cause to the human race. God who is the creator of human race has set the ground rules in the use of sex. Nature affirms God’s order given to us regardless of religious teachings or preferences of people or opinions.
So leaving all the hypocrises and mistakes of the churches and its leaders lets at least respect and follow the order of nature and safe the human race from going the wrong way.
Dear Ratnam: Thanks for trying to engage me in civil, polite discussion. If you read the Bible, as I have for many many years, you will see that this idea of sexual life, or marriage, as being between one man and one woman is a relatively new development. Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon, and other men of God ALL had multiple wives. During the New Testament times, polygamy was also practised somewhat among the Jews of Jesus’ days. And this may come as a surprise to you — but polygamy was not allowed in the pagan Greek / Roman societies of that day.
And, if you watch more Discovery channel, you will know that homosexuality abounds throughout the animal kingdom. It’s been observed in 1,500 animal species and counting. If that’s not natural, I don’t know what is. It is within the laws of nature that 3-10% of the human rice are LGBT. Gay life is not “getting popular” as you put it. Gay people have been there throughout every age.
Lastly, please do not pick and choose Bible verses to throw the sin card at others. Did you know, for instance, that eating pork and shellfish is a sin? Did you know that mixing fabrics is a sin? Did you know that divorce is a sin? Did you know that gluttony is one of the seven deadly sins? Do you know how many obese, shrimp-eating, cotton/polyester-wearing divorcees there are in church these days? Go rail against those sins first. Please.
The same applies to you kenneth. Dont pick and choose scripture verses and wrongly placed information to justify your preference of sex life. You may have read the bible does not mean u have understood God’s word correctly and is able to interpret the word with His revelation knowledge.
So please as u propogate your sexual preference u have used many offensive words and info to humiliate and discredit christianity in general too. If you want Rony Tan to apologise to the gays then u should show him as an example by apologising for misappropriating scripture verses and discrediting christianity. Your ingnorance and misunderstanding to Bible scriptures is quiet clear here.
Ratnam, so what makes you think you have interpreted God’s word correctly? For anyone to complain they perfectly understand God’s word is blasphemous in itself! And what do you mean by “wrongly placed information”?
Instead of saying ignorance and misunderstanding, why don’t you explain what the misunderstanding is? i) Did the quoted ‘men of god’ NOT have multiple wives? ii) are there NO animal species in which mating occurs between two members of the same sex?
At least when Kenneth points out the picking and choosing’ of the scripture verses, there is no double standard on his part in turning a blind eye to some sins and not the others. I can’t say the same for you and many other christians on the other hand.
Has anybody considered that Pastor Rony Tan could have been demonised unfairly for sharing his own faith? As a practising Christian, he has a right to defend his beliefs. Even Martin Luther King had to take on the Pope. So your views may not be in concurrence with his, you are entitled to your corner of the room. Use a simple analogy to keep the discussion above emotional outages: a Nikon camera user will have negatives to say about a Canon user, after all the decision was made after evaluating the pros and cons. Will Canon call in the cops and sue the Nikon user for defamation and libel? This is the sad state of discussion in Singapore – nobody is allowed to have views at all, only what Wong Kan Seng and his set of OBs dictate what is permissible. Everything has to be swept under the carpet, so that they can claim to run a successful country and demand multi-million dollar salaries – while making snide jokes about other countries.
I find it extremely amusing that Christianity opposes both homosexuality and abortions, seeing as how homosexuals are much, much less likely to have abortions than heterosexuals.
With all due respect, Ratnam, the existence of the bible is not proof of god. It is proof that men had enough ink and enough time. Very similar to the existence of the dead sea scrolls.
I also notice this about believers. They like to interpret the bible their way. And if it doesn’t fit their way, then it’s all a matter of perception. Where’s the consistency? If we are to believe that moses parted the red sea, then I also insist we believe that Abraham was ready to murder his son because a voice in his head told him to. And when he was relieved of that task, it was attributed to divine mercy. Incredible.
Also, i find this statement in your previous comment extremely disturbing. “o leaving all the hypocrises and mistakes of the churches and its leaders lets at least respect and follow the order of nature and safe the human race from going the wrong way.” Who are you, and i ask this in the most endearing way possible, who are you to decide which way’s wrong?
Believers like to call us atheists arrogant. My question is this. How can we be the arrogant ones, when we are the ones saying “we don’t know but we can find out” and you are the ones saying “we know for sure”?
Kenneth what is wrong if people speak against homosexuality? Cant they speak their minds? Or must everybody only believe and think the way you think? What is wrong with free speech in this area? What are you howling about?
ok i’m sorry but its kinda funny how this Cheryl (i assume her name is spelt this way?) in the video keeps meeting the wrong people…
While I think there are many intelligent people in Singapore I also think many of these intelligent people are a not so brainy when it comes to religion. Makes me wonder how intelligent educated people can be so dumb to believe lies told by their religous leaders. Unfortunately the law seems to protect lies when it comes to religion.
I don’t know why both sides of the issue make such a big fuss over whether it is in-born. Whether it is or not.. it is about freedom of choice. As long as you are not hurting any third party, people have the right to choose their own sexual orientation.
Kenneth, be patient.. It’s more than a bible vs gay issue.. It’s more of a combination of civil, socio-political and religious issue.. Pastor Tan is really a disgrace though.. He doesn’t preach love but hatred
The current literature and most scholars in the field state that one’s sexual orientation is not a choice; that is, individuals do not choose to be homosexual or heterosexual. There is no scientific evidence that abnormal parenting, sexual abuse, or other adverse life events influence sexual orientation.[Pediatrics: Sexual Orientation and Adolescents, American Academy of Pediatrics Clinical Report. Retrieved 2009-12-08]
Ratnam: The science about the nature of homosexuality is pretty much settled. Pastor Rony Tan attributing homosexuality to abuse, bad parenting, or any other external environmental factor is akin to claiming that the sun revolves around the earth. Something that was accepted and believed centuries ago that modern science subsequently debunked.
I must applaud the bunch who sat through this totally hilarious service. Do people really spend their weekends listening to this guy speak? I would like to think that the majority of Singaporeans have enough common sense to realise that being gay/lesbian does not mean you would like to fornicate with a horse!
>> The same applies to you kenneth. Dont pick and choose scripture verses and wrongly placed information.
There is a fundamental difference here that you clearly do not understand. If you want to claim your book is absolute truth, you have to abide with ALL of your scriptures. Every single one.
It’s a simple logic question. To prove a set (i.e. your bible) is true, you have to prove everything inside is true. Whereas for me to prove it false, all I need to do is to point out one falsehood.
And to the chap whining about freedom of speech, please understand what it entails before you complain. Freedom of speech includes the right to criticise.
Dear Chloe: It’s 2009. We’re living in the days of the Internet. When you put stuff up on the internet, as Pastor Rony Tan did, you’re putting it up for the whole world to see. There’s no such thing as your “corner of the room” unless you put it behind a password.
@sophiasocrates: Your characterisation of me as “howling” is akin to Rony Tan’s characterisation of gay people as “loud-mouthed”. They said the same thing in those days about troublesome scientists and of people who were fighting for the rights of slaves, of women, etc. I can accept that there is ZERO Christlikeness in your comments but seriously, you have nothing to say about the points I made? Or are you saying that Rony Tan was right in everything he said?
The video reminds me of the mess other foreign evangelical pastors have caused in other countries. E.g. American evangelical Christian groups behind death penalty for homosexuality in Uganda, and American Role in Uganda ‘Death Penalty’ Gay Law Revealed.
Here’s something to burn your entire evening away (as well as pull out your hair over): Rony, etc.
thank u so much for posting this video. i just felt my blood pressure listening to him again ARGH!
I followed the Buddhism and Taoism case and have watched those videos closely. Without a doubt they were downright derogatory hence my opinion of Rony Tan. After reading Kenneth’s take on Rony (about gay and lesbianism), I admit it deepened my negativity of this Pastor, I was fuming. However, I am grateful that you posted the gay/lesbian video here as I would have otherwise wrongly impressed solely through your eloquence. So I viewed it to the end, and am glad I returned myself to sanity. I am not a Christian and I am no supporter of Rony, but I have this to say in context of Rony’s video on gay and lesbianism.
1) He made it clear upfront that he is not against gay or lesbian people, and has made it clear that he is fully aware that people may perceive him otherwise in the process of prophesizing “the truth”. He assumes he knows the truth, just like anyone else would although not many might agree with his truth. That is fine.
2) Indeed he started off civilly, but your remark that “it goes rapidly downhill all the way” is wildly exaggerated. In truth, I almost fell asleep as the interview flip flops between drugs and jail most of the time.
3) He cited the CrimeWatch story to elucidate his point about confused sexual tendencies at a young age. By bringing up what the “loud-mouthed gay people” said, he merely uses it to make a point that there are some homosexuals who just aren’t born with it but influenced through early childhood experiences. I cannot see anything wrong with this proposition.
4) He therefore suggested that we must warn people of this danger (i.e. child abuse) otherwise they will grow up with confused sexual orientation which they are not born with. Again, I don’t see anything wrong with this.
5) He brought in bestiality not as an inference of gay people, I don’t hear that at all. Based on what I am hearing, he uses bestiality as an example to expound on the potential ‘wickedness’ of men in general. He seemed to mean that men need to be ‘controlled’ in some way so their ‘wickedness’ will not run wild, bestiality being an example.
6) Yes, he had his opinion just like anyone else would. But I disagree that he “sure does sound like a know-it-all” as the writer claims. He simply argued that same sex doesn’t produce life, and that many (and not all) cases of homosexuality are results of influence rather than innate. “Many” is up to anyone’s interpretation, two could arguably constitute many.
7) If homosexuality is indeed innate, all it needs is just one case of conversion to disprove this claim. The reality is we can find many many many examples of conversions to, and from, homosexuality.
These are just my views.
Thanks for the upload. I totally agree with you, I have been boiling with frustration because I work in a diner that used to have a lot of customers from CH (because our chef was from there but now has left) I have not witnessed “Cell Group” or CH groups give their domestic executives one decent meal, I swear that in the 6 months I’ve observed. It’s terrible that wealth is promoted as a blessing from God. All these rich higher then CEO pastors are in a way no less different from T.T Durai. They get to fly in private jets too! Maybe it’s a pity there is no hell for them to go to.
I believe the gay community is just not appreciative of the acceptance and respect the society has shown to them, even though it’s not perfect – Pastor Rony Tan being an example.
I can understand the anger and insult gay people feel when someone says something nasty about them, but why can’t gay people be a little more gracious and instead of jumping around and ‘bitching’ about every single insults and bad mouths? If you are truly happy with who you are, then it really doesn’t matter what people say isn’t it? Unless deep inside you knows that something and somewhere is wrong, leading you to aggressively try to cover it up and defend your ‘sexuality’.
The society has come a long way to accept the gay people – something that was almost an impossibility a decade ago. I think the gay people should recognize that and try to ‘close one eye’ and be more forgiving and accepting to the society’s flaws and mistakes as we are as imperfect as gay people are.
I admit I am homophobic, but I’ve always respected and accepted gay people for who they are. But the truth is that even though the society accepts and respects gay people, it doesn’t mean there is nothing wrong with being gay. You may argue for all you want or blame it on the ‘traditional’ mindset etc. But the truth at the end of the day remains: A family should be made up of a man and a woman, not a man and a man. There’s a reason why a penis fits a pussy nicely and not an anus.
I am pretty sure there will be some form of rebuttal but it doesn’t really matter. What matters is “Are you happy and is that who you are supposed to be?”. If you truly are gay(happy), you don’t need to constantly raise your hands in anger to defend yourself because a truly happy person can afford to forgive.
Peace out,
Daniel
@Daniel: People who’ve been called paedophiles and bestialists should be graciously accept those remarks and be “appreciative of the acceptance and respect the society has shown to them”, is what you’re saying?
Ratnam, nobody gives a King James Version what you think about the damage gay people are doing to the human race. It is precisely people like you and your good pastor who think you and your religion have set the “ground rules of sex” (sorry I must have missed THAT e-mail bulletin) and that even nature forms according to your will. Likening gayness to global warming? – if you could just hear yourself! “People like Rony are not perfect, they are sinners, so they can continue being ignorant and stupid…”, “We understand the hurt of gay people but we really need to tell you how depraved you are…” Your statements go round and round like a carousel, and I for one am feeling more than a little sick.
Hello admin, I think you’ve got it all wrong. Firstly, I was talking about gay people. Secondly, I hope you understand that the group of people you mentioned and homosexuals are two different kettle of fishes altogether. Children are the victims of pedophiles and that’s unacceptable and a crime(i sincerely hope you feel the same). Therefore, they deserve the rejection of society, what more to accept it graciously.
As for homosexuals like kenetth, society is able to accept them as it is his Decision and Lifestyle that he has chosen. It’s a voluntary decision that does not involve harming an involuntary party. Even though it opposes the normal family values of the society, the society has been able to accept and respect their lifestyles. The keyword and difference here is basically ‘lifestyle’.
There’s no point rambling on and on about the issue of homosexuality as there will be no end. There will always be a part of the society that reject gay people. What’s important is that we try our best to accept and respect each other’s differing beliefs and lifestyles and not take for granted when you’ve been accepted and treated like any other normal person, despite your alternative lifestyle.
Yes, I believe one should stand up and defend his/her beliefs and identity, but there is a time to stand up and there is a time to let go. Try the latter and you will find yourself feeling better.
You may argue back. But it’s okay :) Lets learn to accept each others’ flaws and choose to love, not hate.
Cheers,
Daniel
@daniel Your posting in this thread reminds me of Chinese saying “只许官兵放火，不容百姓点灯“- roughly translated as “allowing the soldiers to set ablaze, but forbidding the commoners to light a lamp”. You claim that the “gay community is not appreciative” of the society, but in what sense is Rony Tan showing any respect to people who are different from him or yourself?
Your first post reminded me of Mrs Merriweather from To Kill a Mockingbird by Harper Lee, where she was lamenting how her black slave was being unappreciative. All you need to do is to replace the word ‘gay’ with ‘black’ in your post and you can see why your words strike an eerie resemblance to what a white supremacist would have said just a few decades ago.
You keep rambling on about to respect and accept people who are different from you but at the very same breath you declare yourself a homophobic and argue that homosexuals go against the ‘normal family values’. What to you then, is a ‘normal family value’? A same-sex relationship doesn’t render the value of a opposite-sex one less worthy (vice versa). Even in some societies today polygamy is considered a ‘normal family value’, and there are instances where it’s considered ‘normal’ for women not to be educated, not to engage in conversations with men other than their own husband and even not to drive. You be surprised how complicated the word ‘normal’ is.
You have veered off the track when you spoke about ‘being happy’. Just because you’re happy with the way you are, it doesn’t mean that you should not speak up. By the same token, I can also say that you’re an unhappy person because you have chosen to voice out your homophobe concerns on this website. “Why can’t Daniel be more gracious and just keep the thoughts to himself?” – I’ll say. And the moment someone jumps at you, you label that person as being ‘unhappy’.
From the link you’ve provided, I understand that you’re straight and happily in love- that’s great. But don’t go around flaunting your straight lifestyle- homosexuals like me don’t think it’s normal. It’s just common.
@Roy
“He made it clear upfront that he is not against gay or lesbian people” is simply a lame attempt to cushion the next diatribe on homosexuality. It’s so boringly predictable. Let me show you a great example.
“but I’ve always respected and accepted gay people for who they are.” followed by “it doesn’t mean there is nothing wrong with being gay”
Point 7. If you do not consider sexuality as two fixed points, but rather a spectrum, with homo/hetero sexuality at either ends and various degrees of bisexuality in between, it explains things rather well.
@Daniel
Truly infantile argument. Just because things have progressed in the last decade (and seriously, what hasn’t), means we should all gratefully accept the crumbs thrown to us and accept our positions as second-class citizens? And what exactly is “normal values of society”? Who gets to define them? You? Or the same group of people that decided that a family should be a man and a woman?
You come in, make snide remarks about how homosexuality is wrong, and proceed to lecture, in your patronising tone, about how we should be grateful and not get angry. I assure you I was a lot less pissed before I read your posts.
it’s interesting how these interviewees were always ‘Yes-ing’.
I like this blog already! Piercing words, great debate. Let me chip in my thoughts here. My sexual and religious orientation is immaterial here, it is the objectivity, logic and assumptions that count. And it should be on these three bases that professional debate should focus, rather than on one’s personality or style or demeanor etc, hence no feelings hurt.
Whether homosexuality is nature or nurture is anyone’s guess. Medical scientists and psychologists don’t always agree with each other, but they are all scientists so no reason to think one camp is more superior to the other.
Those who assume that human has the implicit moral duty to reproduce will not approve of gay and lesbianism. Conversely those who assume that man has every right to choose will argue for homosexuality as a personal choice. When the two camps meet, there will be no end because the fundamental assumptions on the role of humankind are different to begin with. Until we agree on these assumptions, or agree to disagree, debating about lifestyle is really missing the point.
The “reproduction” camp wants humankind to last forever, not extinction. So any threat to this aspiration is met with stern defence. Yet they fail to understand that we evolved from animal, and perhaps something else before animal. For human then to avoid extinction and evolution is wishful at best, illogical at worst. It’s just a question on how and when.
Indeed, same sex (human) does not produce life. This isn’t the worry of the “human rights” camp, yet the “reproduction” camp fought tooth and nail to make them see this fact. I assume they know this fact inside out, just that it isn’t what they are concerned about. In the same breath, they were reminded that their existence is through the heterosexual act of their parents, not otherwise. And therefore urged to remember what is ‘normal’ and what is ‘anormal’.
To which the other camp disputed, some use animals and insects to defend their cause as ‘normal’. But despite the fact that male seahorses reproduce, they still need eggs from female seahorses. Human aren’t germs or spiders, so we can’t produce asexually. Neither are we snails (hermaphrodites), so we can’t produce male and female cells in a single body. So using non-human species to defend human actions is not logical, not objective and not reasonable. Reproduction of human therefore is only possible when something from both male and female come together in an inter- or intra-course manner. Until such time that we have a “robotic womb” for foetus to gestate, and the technology to fertilize two sperms or two eggs, men and women “cooperation” is till a must.
So, which camp do you belong? What are your fundamental assumptions about the role of human in this world? You make the call…
To Daniel,
By the very admission that you are homophobic, you are acknowledging a flaw in yourself. And yet there is no further indication of a desire to correct that flaw. In fact, your subsequent comments lead me to assume that you are currently satisfied in being homophobic “but respectful” to the gay community. I’m afraid that is not something i can respect – The very admission of being homophobic and choosing not to do anything about it IS disrespect, no matter how you see it. Replace the word “homophobic” with “racist” and you get “I admit I am racist, but I’ve always respected and accepted black people for who they are.” Can you see the contradiction in your words now?
Btw I’m not angry or pissed at you. Clearly, you do show a desire to respect people, but if my suspicions are correct, you are not even aware that you’re being disrespectful.
I think you need to rethink what you’re saying and what you believe, Daniel. While i appreciate the sentiment you are trying to convey, i have to tell you that your words do not reflect your intentions of spreading love and respect. I hope that you will this as advice from someone who is concerned and not from someone who is trying to attack you.
Hey
In fact, who say that when you attend church all this sexuality issue will go away. A famous AOG minister known as, Late Frank Houston who was one of the co founder of famous Hillsong Christian Centre was a paedophilia.
(http://www.moriel.org/articles/notice_board/open_letter_about_alleged_sexual_abuse.htm)
Perhaps he can comment on his fellow mircale working brother.
[...] « Pastor Rony Tan of Lighthouse Evangelism needs to apologise to gays and lesbians too [...]
What inspired Kenneth to post this video up, i feel, was simply that he felt it was completely unfair for Rony Tan to be a gay-basher. Everything else, including religions aside, this is already discriminatory on its own. The fundamental problem here, then, stems from the 2 opposing views. One being of the view that homosexuality is simply what a person is, the other being of the view that homosexuality is what a person does.
To discriminate against the gay community in the eyes of the first view will be akin to discrimination that is parallel to racism. To be against a peron because of what he is, be it a foreign bangla worker or a gay has the same unjustness to people of the first view. In a case like this, when the discriminators speak of the discrimatory factor as something that can be “cured”, it is completely absurd to the discriminatorees. When it is said that you should pray for your homosexual tendencies to be gone, it has the same effect as telling a certain race or skin colour to pray for a colour change.
As for the second view, it is completely justified because homosexuality is something that someone chooses to be. That is why they sometimes equate it with paedophilia (which I strongly oppose). Because homosexuality is something that is chosen/done, it can be undone. In the same breath, it is a crime to them.
Now in my opinion, I feel that there has not been any strong arguments against homosexuals. Sure the bible says sex is for procreation, and sex between same genders have no part in that. Firstly, if that is a sin, what shall we make of married couples who choose not to have children? Shall we condemn them in the same light as we do to homosexuals for not procreating? And the bible says to be fruitful and multiply. Shall we chastise China for the one-child policy which limits the extent to which the citizens are allowed to multiply?
Then there is the argument that a man’s and a woman’s sexual organs are made for each other. What then shall we make of virgins? Are we undermining what God has created for us when we do not fulfill its purpose?
I am a straight Christian man but what I have offered are my objective unbiased views, or at least as far as I can. As Christians, our priority is to put God first above all else. As Christians, we should love and not judge. As the bible says, “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone”. There are non among us without sins. I think at the end of the day, we are wasting too much time putting other people down. As a human being, regardless of religion, are we to spend our lives forcing our ideals on everyone else or should we be productive and inspire instead? I feel we should focus on what we should be doing and not what others should NOT be doing. Just like the invisible hand in markets as Adam Smith as hypothesized, if we all will direct our efforts into that, there will be a general auto-correction in our society especially with more love and less hate. Just my 2cents.
he have no right to say about gay people. wait til one of his son become one then he will know if gay people can choose to be or not to be gay.
@jem
Good spot there! By “it doesn’t mean there is nothing wrong with being gay”, I am hearing it with an open mind. The benefit of doubt is that the Pastor is not claiming that there is indeed something wrong with being gay either. Clearly the Pastor holds the view that human has the moral duty to procreate, hence any behaviour to the contrary requires intervention and/or correction. Which again stems from his fundamental assumption and belief about the role of humankind.
Homosexuality or lesbianism as a result of child abuse is one example which he suggests can be altered.
It is interesting that you introduced a spectrum view to this subject. Yet between two adults, there can only be three discreet states at best: 1) M-M, 2) M-F, 3) F-F. The only way to make it spectrum-like is to introduce infinite number of players but clearly, polygamy or multi-gamy is not the subject of discussion here.
@Roy: You have got to be kidding when you say the “Pastor is not claiming that there is indeed something wrong with being gay either”. This was a testimony of a lesbian claiming to be healed from her “sickness” and “affliction” of homosexuality.
@Kenneth
Remember… she wasn’t born this way, she was abused as a child leaving her disgusted with men, call it “influenced lesbianism” if I may. Healing her (as the Pastor claimed) doesn’t necessarily imply she was wrong being lesbian, just like doctors healing patients doesn’t suggest all patients were wrong prior.
The Url of the Video clips of Pastor Rony Tan blasting and attacking Buddhism as below:
Pastor Rony Tan Blasts Buddhist Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIrtk5V_t-Q
Pastor Rony Tan Blasts Buddhist Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKBzyatd880
Pastor Rony Tan Blasts Buddhist Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEfQwBu5ZWE
Pastor Rony Tan Blasts Buddhist Part 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4wKGg4mJ1g
@Roy: Oh, and how would you know she wasn’t lesbian before the sexual abuse?
I hope you see this idea of sexual-abuse-turns-people-gay doesn’t hold water. For every gay person that’s been sexually abused, I can show you many more straight people that’ve been sexually abused. You can’t just hold out one example of a gay survivor of sexual abuse and say that she’s gay because she’s sexually abused, or that all gay people have been sexually abused.
@Kenneth
“how would you know she wasn’t lesbian before the sexual abuse?” – hasn’t she meant that in the video already? on what basis then do you assume the contrary? I’m speaking from what I see in that video, so don’t second guess anything and get paranoid.
“I hope you see this idea of sexual-abuse-turns-people-gay doesn’t hold water.” – have you been reading my comments or selective reading? I’m not in the position to generalize, I’m only refering to that lady in the video with the benefit of doubt that what she said is true. Are you trying to say that she lied?
“For every gay person that’s been sexually abused, I can show you many more straight people that’ve been sexually abused.” – I will never dispute this and I have not made this suggestion whatsoever anywhere in my comments. Show me what I wrote to draw perfect correlation between abuse and gay.
“You can’t just hold out one example of a gay survivor of sexual abuse and say that she’s gay because she’s sexually abused, or that all gay people have been sexually abused.” – you are stuffing so many words in my mouth which I have never said and meant. Show me what I wrote to infer “all gay people have been sexually abused” and I shall bow and apologize.
[...] Via: Kennethism [...]
Hi E, thanks for your word of advice and concern :) You have a logical point there, but to be perfectly honest, I have all respect and not a tinge of disrespect for gay people. I thought you could have been right when you said that I may not even know that I’m disrespecting the gay people. But after a good honest reflection on my part, I have to be reinstate that I do not disrespect them.
Perhaps I have wrongly labeled myself as Homophobic as I’m definitely not ‘fearful’ of homosexuals. In fact, I find myself confidently engaging gay people. But anyway, life goes on and I’m happy with who I am and who people choose to be :) Happy Chinese new year! haha..
Actually, it’s unimportant for Rony Tan to apologize to homosexuals. The man is now permanently shamed, permanently on ISD’s watchlist, and in the eyes of country, a dangerous seditious man to keep kids away from.
Also, it is interesting to note how the self styled protectors of “family values” and “the silent majority” have progressively fallen one by one.
Since 2003, we had seen these self claimed prophets try to draw glory to themselves. Starting with Thio Su Mien’s letter to the newspapers to oppose homosexuality, then her organizing the Love Singapore coalition with Cornerstone Church, then their supposed big victory in 2007 where Thio Li Ann abused all homosexuals in parliament. Then of course to Aware, and the whole crumbling down.
See what has been exposed about these protectors of families and children:
1) The infamous Thio Su Mien, self styled feminist mentor. Now a national joke. Publically chatised by the government for her extremist, underhand methods. Her actions actually made the government warned evangelists publically, something the PAP has not done in a long time.
2) The associated Derek Hong, forced by the government to openly apologize for invading the public sphere with his religious position, and correspondingly threatening the peace of Singapore.
3) Cornerstone Community Church. Their idea of protecting children includes sending out evangelists to harrass and intimidate schoolchildren into joining their church, at schoolgates. To date, they have neither explained nor apologized for their actions.
4) Thio Li Ann. Forever in a world of death threats and unprovable stories. Shamed internationally with her own fiasco with NYU. Renowned internationally now as a bigot, and an academic who dared not defend her own ideas publically. Failed to get re-selected for another NMP term.
5) Rony Tan. For all the love and healing, he is remarkably unconcerned about causing religious conflict, conflict which will destroy all families in Singapore within days.
Of course, there are some others left. Like Christian Post, which is still actively disseminating misinformation. Or all the nameless Christian defenders online, repeatedly regurgitating their “the bible says so,” “it’s unnatural” arguments on everything and anything. Or Henry, the guy who started retain377a. Or maybe even those in NCCS, who after all the statements promising they support religious harmony, appeared quite unbothered in preventing such things from happening.
I think all of these, will fall. Because ultimately, there is no substance in them other than threats and fear and rumours and endless “I got this friend….” kind of unprovable testimonials. There will come a time when the fear they wield, will turn upon themselves. And because everything is also built on lies, it will all come down eventually, big time. I’m just watching with glee to see how they shame themselves over and over again. And frankly, it’s happening even faster than I thought.
god damn losers. the writer too
@Roy
“It is interesting that you introduced a spectrum view to this subject. Yet between two adults, there can only be three discreet states at best: 1) M-M, 2) M-F, 3) F-F. The only way to make it spectrum-like is to introduce infinite number of players but clearly, polygamy or multi-gamy is not the subject of discussion here.”
You are describing marriage, or at least some kind of monogamous relationship, between two people. That is different from which gender(s) a person is attracted to. You can be attracted to some people of both genders, but for monogamous marriage you have to choose only one.
Award goes to joe for the most intellectually stimulating comment.
I am not advocating homosexuality or homosexual acts, neither am I condemning it. However, I do believe that we are too ignorant to judge, and too arrogant to admit that we simply do not know enough.
What I propose is therefore to adopt the spirit of academia – to admit when you are wrong, and to find the truth in the matter before coming to conclusions. That is the only responsible way we should be holding this discussion. I think this issue has risen some important tensions in our community. In my personal opinion, I think such tensions should be resolved by looking at the history of homosexuality, and the context of homosexual acts.
Humans for the last 5000 years or so, have been engaged in homosexual acts. Please understand that ‘being gay’ is a contemporary idea that sprouted from the West and it differs from homosexuality. In fact, homosexual acts is the norm throughout our history, rather than the exception. It was the indoctrination of modern religions that emphasized the use of sex for procreation, that downplay the role of homosexual acts. It did not for once say that homosexuality is bad because it only mentions that sex should be used for procreation. Hence today, we have deduced that any other form of sex that is not for procreation is inherently bad. However, in the past, homosexual acts were not derogatory. It was the values attached to it that makes the difference. In fact, many cultures – Egyptian, Roman, Greeks, Chinese (yes, emperors had male escorts too), Korean all have records of homosexuality. (Naphy, The History of Homosexuality)
So people, look at the history books (and yes it is fallible) before falling upon your own ‘morals’, because the fact is that we simply do not know enough about ourselves, to judge others for what they are.
On a last note, instead of looking at our differences, I suggest we look at our similarities and that homosexuals are humans too and can potentially be a friend. Instead of asking ‘why are you gay?’, maybe it’s time to ask ‘why am I straight?’. Seek first to understand, before you expect others to understand you.
Like the bible says, “Judge not, lest ye be no Judged” (Mattew 7:1)
Homosexuality is Condemned in the Bible!
http://www.bible.ca/s-homo=sin.htm
@Paul KC: My overall point is that we do not know enough to presume to jude whether homosexuality is ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ but to seek to understand more about each other first.
Often, we are hasty to jump to conclusions that are most convenient to us and I urge strongly against that.
Furthermore, do you truly believe everything that is said and written on the internet? Perhaps it is better to doubt what you read, or you will be led to false information. Furthermore, everything you hear and read is a point of view. So people, I sincerely urge you all to find out from reliable resources. There are academic books, research and publications you can turn to. The more you read, the more you find out that the issue is more complex that just a single statement -because even that statement can be debated in its interpretation.
Do you see my point when I say we simply do not know enough?
So all I am saying is to looking at each other like fellow human beings rather than placing certain individuals in deceit because of who they are.
Live in the present and make a difference to our community NOW because we can truly make heaven a place on earth. So in the meantime, homosexual or not – if the person is there for me in times of need, is an upright civic citizen who does no crime, should it matter whether the person is homosexual or not?
@Daniel: Just for comic relief and nothing personal – there’s a reason why an anus also fits a penis as well. HAHAHA…jkjk
@Roy: There are women-women marriages in Africa. Their culture is not what you think as ‘savages’. They are a much more advanced culture than ours and reasons for marrying women was that men often abuse their wives and hence, having women in the family can help protect themselves against domestic violence or inheritance disadvantages. (Anthropology). So please, take a course in anthropology to realise how narrow your world view in this subject matter is. For goodness sakes, please do not think these people are savages – you will be ‘judging’ and I do believe the Bible is pretty straight forward about THAT issue =D by the way, there are F-M-M. You know, like bisexuals?
I am sure you was a Christian since you do have a great knowledge about Bible, me too. I agree certain points you put across and certain points from Ps Rony Tan, however, I believe we should not be emotion about these topics. Rather, we have to do our own research and make up our own judgement. There are plenty of materials in the web regarding these topics.
yup, start researching from here.
http://dogemperor.newsvine.com/_news/2009/05/07/2790052-the-aware-steeplejackers-and-their-deep-connections-to-joels-army-and-american-dominionists
OT, but scary enough
[...] the bashing [Thanks A. Noni-Mity] – Singapore Life and Times: Flogging a dead horse – Kennethism: Pastor Rony Tan of Lighthouse Evangelism needs to apologise to gays and lesbians too [Thanks Kenneth] – The Temasek Review: Aftermath of Rony Tan fiasco: ISD shouldn’t be policing [...]
@musiace
While you have admirably advocated a “spirit of academia” characterized by a will to “admit when you are wrong”, “find the truth… before coming to conclusions”, “responsible way” and “we simply do not know enough”, your further discussion on Feb 14 contains signs of incoherence.
Firstly, you seem to suggest that “academic books, research and publications” are “reliable resources” but not the internet. In the “spirit of academia”, the internet is a reality. Trivializing its presence and content is akin to theory without practice. As you humbly reminded us that “we simply do not know enough” on a subject as complex as this, your trust in “reliable resources” other than the internet is bias at best and pretentious at worst. Is a person’s point of view over the internet any less credible than an author’s words in a book? Are collective discourses by millions if not billions over the internet any more questionable than volumes of periodicals cross referencing each other? By your own admission that “we simply do not know enough”, you clearly have known enough about where truth prevails.
Secondly, you have accused me of labeling African culture as ‘savages’ and on that basis chided my world view as narrow. Per your advocacy for a “responsible way” for holding discussions, I now challenge you to point out anywhere on the internet that I have made that disparaging remark (i.e. about African culture or same sex marriage). Otherwise, you have either mis-directed your Feb 14 comments at me or you have attempted to place baseless judgment on me thereby exposing your feeble “academia” stance.
Thirdly, words are meaningful and relevant only in as far as the context defines. My discussion on Feb 12 clearly outlined the context: “Yet BETWEEN TWO ADULTS, there can only be three discreet states at best: 1) M-M, 2) M-F, 3) F-F. THE ONLY WAY TO MAKE IT SPECTRUM-LIKE IS TO INTRODUCE INFINITE NUMBER OF PLAYERS but clearly, POLYGAMY OR MULTI-GAMY IS NOT THE SUBJECT OF DISCUSSION HERE.” [emphasis capitalized] Yet you have chosen to pepper it with “Anthropology”, “Bible”, “F-M-M” and “bisexuals” that offer no further value in advancing the discussion here. The blatant ignorance or incompetence to critique in context is irresponsible and remotely “academia”. Clearly, the lack of this basic skill renders any “reliable resources”, be it in the library or internet, as immaterial.
For the record, my very first existence in this forum on Feb 11 is to present my personal appraisal of the video in question where Rony Tan interviewed the ex-lesbian. While I am no fan of Christianity nor Rony Tan, I argue that the interview conducted by Rony Tan is far from malicious or derogatory. However, the ensuing discussions degenerated into ‘good’ or ‘bad’ which in my opinion is not a stance the Pastor adopted in the video to begin with. Whether ‘converting’ the said lesbian is ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ is not for anyone else to judge other than the ex-lesbian herself to determine. Yet many who profess to be objective and appear rhetorically learned condemn the Pastor’s interview despite the ex-lesbian adoring her new found happiness after conversion. Who are we to right or wrong a cause in context of her? 5000 years of homosexual history has no bearing on whatsoever to her, for her, in her.
38 Point-by-point Clarifications of Misconceptions
in Pastor Rony Tan’s Vids can be seen @
http://tinyurl.com/ygerfp3
LGBT, singlehood, couples who choose to have no children and those who choose to be sexually abstinence, all the above are lifestyles (whether chosen by self or bobian) that produce no offspring and are all against “nature” and national policy. But if these lifestyles harm nobody, let’s not be busybodies. Sure everyone can have their own opinions, but if yours is hindering someone’s harmless happiness, please refrain from enforcing your opinion on them.
[...] For the misconceptions regarding gays and lesbians: Click here for a write-up by a blogger I chanced upon. [...]
Acts of Homosexuality are not condoned in the Bible, Its judgement upon the persons. Pastor Rony had not condemned the person, but the act. He is consistent in Biblical teachings to love the person and not the “sin”. In this case, the Bible considers homosexual as sin.
@JohnCharles: Did you also know that eating pork, eating shrimp and wearing mixed fabrics are also not condoned in the Bible?
[...] of things have happened since I broke with the story of the ex-lesbian ‘healing’ and Pastor Rony Tan’s assertion that homosexuality is aki…. I’ve been called all sorts of names on this blog and on other blogs — my favourite one [...]
This is a challenge to the freedom of speech for those who want to express a different opinion. Why do you want to silence those who want to speak against homosexuality?
Do they think that nobody can say anything against them. Must everybody compulsorily believe that homosexuality tendencies are something which some are born with? Making police reports for this is just a joke. It will only make the police laugh. Why don’t you guys make police reports against God?
Please, sex between man and woman is the only real sex. Homosexual sex is a perversion. Its not true sex. Homosexuals will never get the fullness of a sex life. That is why they are angry with the rest. Its pretended sex. They never get satisfied. They pretend to be satisfied. That is why they become angry with anybody or any group that do not approve of their lifestyle.
The politicizing of this movement is great shame. They want to still everybody who wants to voice a different opinion. If its natural th
@sophiasocrates:
So I need to be tolerant of Rony Tan’s intolerance, is what you’re saying?
Nobody is really trying to silence Rony Tan and rob him of his freedom of speech. In fact, I’m sure I’m not the only one who hopes he will be brave enough to repeat some of his assertions.
In the words of Barney Frank, “Trying to have a conversation with you would be like trying to argue with a dining room table. I have no interest in doing it.”
@Roy
Firstly, I would like to apologise for reading your statement from its original context (as I’ve read it from a quote in someone else’s post). =) *peace*
In any case, with regards to the ex-lesbian who is happy with her current state. While history of course does not dictate entirely the course of the present, I think it is useful as a form of reflection and a kaleidoscope into where we have come from. Which is why I somehow agree with you that it is extremely difficult to chart out the complexities of the individual, society, and nature/nurture because humans have social tendencies. Therefore, our ‘person’, I feel, is influenced both by the environment around us and our own personality. While I do not confess to know about this issue, I think the ex-lesbian must have experienced this. Therefore in short, perhaps what I would say is that while history have shown that human beings have homosexual tendencies, societal/communal/individual factors must have ‘altered’ her stand to the current one and those aspects are difficult to dissect and understand individually.
So perhaps it is a kind of a paradox that when I say that we have to seek first to understand each other before judgement (which I have not done perfectly myself =]), sometimes the question I also ask is how do we find a way, if we are willing, to do so? Hence, I can also sympathesize with the pastor in relying on ‘easy’ information to draw convenient conclusions. Which is why I advocate to actually take the effort, even if the effort will be great and complex, to start to understand.
I hope I make my stand clear. Once again, I apologise for my spirited, but mis-directed arguments earlier =D
This video was outrageously ignorant and cruel. I’d like to make a police report myself!
@ Roy
Firstly, I would like to apologise for the mis-directed comments. I have read your comments from a quote from another’s post above and perhaps it was then taken out of context. =D *peace*
With regards to your statement on the ex-lesbian, being happy and who are we to judge if she is ‘right’ or ‘wrong’. I personally agree with you. While history does not dictate the future course of the history that we will make, it does provide a useful retrospective in essence to show where we have come from. It is thus difficult to untangle the individual factors that make the ex-lesbian who she is today – ex. The social, communal, even individual factors that affect her decision is not easy to dissect, and hence, not easy to understand. Therefore, because we do not know, we cannot say if her decision is ‘wrong’ or ‘right’. Even if we can explain her change in stance, it is difficult to evaluate and thus conclude on the matter.
The crux of my point that reality is so complex, that even if it is difficult to understand, we must also try. Perhaps, because of the enormity of the effort to study it, lay people like Rony Tan use ‘easy’ information to reach convenient conclusions that suit his ideology and world view which can be detrimental and offend other groups of people. My stand is that even if it is very near impossible to understand this complex anthropological issue, I still think it’s worth the effort to first shed mis-conceptions, and then bridge understanding.
With regards to internet sources. While it is true that academic books is just another point of view and that it is one compared to millions on the internet: my question is whether those quantitative views can surmount to the quality?There are people like Rony Tan who make mis-informed views. Therefore, it is those views which mislead people, that I caution against. Many times, we do not know if what we read on the internet is factual. Even academic sources can flaw in their methods of research, however, unlike comments on the internet, authors take great lengths to ensure their work has integrity – something which the internet does not ensure. Academic sources do not merely comment, they use large empirical evidence and technical knowledge to substantiate and prove their point of reasoning. I am not belittling the reaches of the internet because personally I find it extremely informative. However, I am merely concerned at an individual’s ability to dispose comments that he is not well-informed about which can arouse and propagate misconceptions amongst others, as per examples like Rony Tan.
Once again, I apologise for taking your comments out of context in my earlier posts. =)Hope this post makes my stand a clearer one.
@ Roy: opps… i thought i did not post. Sorry for posting 2 versions. Please read the later one =D
and if Cheryl Bachelor (who looks like a raging bulldyke) is supposedly straight then pigs can fly. I’m sorry she was molested as a child, but statistically speaking, there are just as many survivors of sexual abuse who are gay proportionally as they are straight….
Kenneth please go for classes in sound reasoning and logic. Lodging police reports and daring him to repeat his words are threats. You just don’t want him to have his own opinion. He must agree with you if not he must be silenced and punished? My do you really believe in free speech at all. Your reasoning is flawed. A true liberal will fight for the rights of expression, even if he does not agree about what his opponent says. You are not a liberal at all. You are a fundamentalist.
@sophiasocrates: Excuse ME? Where have I been trying to silence Rony Tan? What are you doing then trying to silence me? In any civil society, anyone has the right to say anything, and anyone else can have the right of reply. And that’s what we’re doing here.
So if i agree with you and if we’re not supposed to be eating shrimps and wearing mixed clothings.. we would have been anihilated by the wrath of God..along with homosexuals and lesbians? LOL.
I watched the video last night. It was very brave for the lady to retell her life story for the benefit of others. For those who are lost and felt unable to help yourselves, remember not to lose hope and there are people who will help you.
Source of the video:http://vimeo.com/9337605
do agree he should not be making such remarks in public after his recent case with ISD… But I do agree some point from him regarding gay and lesbains.. anyway I feel these gays and lesbain are far too emo these days.. every little thing not happy complain here and there.. btw.. u guys are not the law of nature..
I am just curious, why didnt Rony tan took on people of certain class like ministers or religion leaders, professors, in his videos or during his service?
All he did was finding those ignorance people and start humiliating them catching single words from them and make them look silly.
I believed that during those sessions he made, there should be at least more than half of the faithful listeners who laughed along with him…
but why don’t these people start standing out to defend him and made known that there is no disgrace when they started to listen and follow his preaching?
[...] "Pastor Rony Tan of Lighthouse Evangelism needs to apologise to gays and lesbians too" – Kennethism Blog Archive Pastor Rony Tan of Lighthouse Evangelism needs to apologise to gays and lesb… [Cut-Paste from Blog above] …"Pastor Rony starts off civilly enough, saying that he is not [...]
Dear Kenneth,
Of Course! It’s true.
You are a living sample. You even claimed to have read the bible but from what I’ve read, you have a long way to go. Consider a cell group and bring your friends along.
Just a few comments and observations (in general).
1. ALL major medical and scientific associations in the world HAVE NO disagreement AT ALL that homosexuality is NOT a psychological disease, and hence do not require ANY forms of “treatments”. This imaginary “2 camps” DO NOT EXIST! NARTH is NOT a scientific body.
2. Most people who commented on homosexuality have little or no understanding on the research that had been done. The exact causes of homosexuality are presently still unknown. But it can be said that genetic, hormonal, developmental, cultural, and social influences are the various possibilities. And it is true that sexual orientation can change with time (particularly for lesbian) this change is non-controllable and is not a choice, but more of a fluctuation . In any cases, your orientation is NOT a CHOICE. You CANNOT choose to like or dislike the taste of orange. You can make yourself eat orange, but u can’t choose to like the taste of orange. And unlike preference of orange, sexual orientation is NOT an “acquired taste”. Becuz if sexual orientation is so easily influenced, u will not have homosexual in the first place – given the social prejudice against homosexuality.
3. Freedom of speech does not protect ones from the responsibility in properly presenting facts. It is factual that a vast majority of the homosexual NEVER had any form of abuse, and they grew up in normal heterosexual family. It is factually inaccurate to claim that homosexuality is due to sexual abuse. Whatever opinions you have on homosexuality are yours. But to justify your opinions using fallacious logic and science are misrepresentation and should be condemned.
It is WRONG to claim that homosexuality is a psychological disease when ALL the major medical and scientific associations claimed otherwise.
It is WRONG to claim that homosexuality can be treated WHEN there are NO scientific evidences indicating so. Instead, evidences suggest that such “treatment” are potentially HARMFUL to the homosexual. And this is the OFFICIAL STAND by ALL medical and scientific associations.
IT is WRONG to claim that most homosexuals come from broken families, or have encountered traumatic experiences, when evidences indicated otherwise.
IT is WRONG to claim that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice, when it isn’t.
IT is WRONG to claim that homosexual relationship are unstable just because it “against nature”, when in reality it is social pressure which cause this instability.
It is WRONG to claim that homosexuality will lead to “sinful” lifestyle, when in reality, the issues lie in the fact that the person has psychological problems, and homosexuality is but a result of that psychological issue. It is like if a person had gotten flu, and hence he felt sleepy, is it logical to assert that feeling sleepy is a disease? The fact is all these “Christian homosexual cases” are people who have psychological problems. And for some they just happens to be homosexual, and for other their psychological issues cause them to embrace homosexuality.
It is a whole world of difference between stating an opinion and falsely justifying an opinion based on a misrepresentation of facts.
And yes, Pastor Rony Tan should STFU if he has insufficient knowledge on the subject matter. And if he dares to sprout factually inaccurate “facts”, and draw fallacious conclusion, he should be lambasted for mis-information. Or should I say, dis-information?
Study reveals potential evolutionary role for same-sex attraction
http://www.physorg.com/news184507170.html
Why the double standards?
While I agree that there is no necessity to mock other religions when you preach the gospel of Jesus Christ, I can’t help but think that a double standard exists in Singapore. I am referring to the recent and ongoing uproar caused by Pastor Rony Tan of Lighthouse Evangelism church in Singapore. His video-recorded interviews cum testimonies of ex-Buddhists and Taoists have angered many Singaporeans and landed him in trouble with the authorities.
Why do I say that a double standard exists in Singapore? Well, I recall that when the Da Vinci Code movie and book were popular here, it upset many Christians like myself and caused many of us to question our faith. It also caused many non-Christians to believe that the whole Christian faith was a hoax. Yet, the authorities did nothing about it, though I am sure many Christians voiced their concerns and hoped that the movie and book would be banned.
To make matters worse, well-watched documentary TV channels took advantage of the movie’s popularity and aired documentaries (such as the Gospel Of Judas) here that further undermined the Christian faith. These documentaries, the movie and similar publications said many things which Christians regard as blasphemous. For example, they disputed the death and resurrection of Jesus, a fundamental truth of Christianity, and said that He had sex and hence children with Mary Magdalene.
So I can’t help but think that it is somehow okay to “mock” or “test” Christians here, but not believers of other faiths. (Don’t get me wrong. I am not saying that it is right to mock other religions.) No one doubts that such movies and books would never be allowed in Singapore if they were undermining, say, Islam. Can you imagine what would happen if a Da Vinci Code type of movie and book about the Muslim faith were to be screened and sold here?
So why do the other faiths here seem to enjoy more protection than the Christian faith? Were the movie, documentaries and books permitted to be shown and sold in Singapore because Christians here were not vocal enough, that is, we did not protest in the streets or call for the death of Dan Brown? Must it come to that before we are heard? Didn’t the religious harmony bill speak loud enough for us?
Perhaps we are seen as more tolerant, less volatile — hence it’s okay to push the boundaries when it comes to content that undermines and mocks the Christian faith.
I really hope that in future, Christians here can enjoy the same amount of protection the other faiths here enjoy. Let’s be fair.
Double standards?
With comparison of the Da Vinci Code and this Rony Tan?
Da Vinci Code is presented as Fiction, both movie and books.
If the faith of the Christianity in SG so fragile to be shattered by fiction, then that say something about the foundation of that faith, no?
Besides, even if Government were to ban the Da Vinci code, its readily available all over the world. (Is such regulation realistic or even logical?)
Christian in SG not vocal enough? I think not. All we have hear from the is loud and clear, and its not a message of love and compassion. (Aware, TLA and so on and so forth)
Please dont downplay the gravity of Rony TAn’s action and play the victim card here. (not appropriate for the fundamentalist christian anyway).
Why should the pastor apologise? He was just speaking the truth. Too bad if the truth hurts LGBTs. Homosexuality is a crystal-clear perversion. What’s there to argue???
@musiace
Thank you, your apology is accepted.
On your point about the ‘integrity’ of resources, I agree with you only from a positivist perspective. There are just too many things in this world that cannot be proven or deduced through empirical means. Our inability to make use of the infinite amount of information on the internet is not a proof of invalidity, just a lack of our capability to process them at the present time.
@eterna2
Just curious here… So homosexuality is not a “psychological disease” but some are symptoms of psychological problems? In other words, it is like some kind of psychological disorder? I have never heard of a thing called “psychological disease” so I suppose no one will ever say it is. What do doctors do to patients who have psychological disorder, or psychological problems? Isn’t that what the Pastor supposedly did with that ex-lesbian? The question then is whether the Pastor is qualified to do it in the first place.
I think it’s useful to understand how the American Psychiatric Association was “persuaded” to define homosexuality as normal, in the absence of any sound scientific evidence:
http://www.rainbowhistory.org/apazap.htm
Please note that this account is from a gay ADVOCACY site, so there is no question of biased reporting. In any case, it’s well documented in all the news reports of the day. There is no scientific basis at all for the change in definition of homosexuality as a mental illness.
Here are some well-reasoned analyses of the scientific studies often quoted about homosexuality. Read and decide for yourself based on the arguments presented:
http://www.narth.com/menus/cstudies.html
Whether you believe in evolution or creation, the fact is that the design of nature indicates the heterosexuality is normal, and homosexuality is abnormal. There are male and female chromosomes. There is male and female anatomy. Society all over the world is based on heterosexual pairing. Any society that is exclusively homosexual will not be around for very long. Reproduction is designed to be heterosexual.
The fact that homosexuality exists does not mean it is normal. Homosexuality is abnormal. Aberrations are found in nature. You have two headed snakes – you would not term these as “normal” even though they do exist. You have babies born every year with congenital heart defects. They are not normal babies. And yes, you would offer surgery to treat these babies in order to save their lives. You would not just say: “Oh, they’re normal” and leave them to die.
@eterna 2
Hello…I agree with your general point about knowing enough before propagating information to others. Just an interesting thing to note, in the 1960s-70s, homosexuality was in the Diagnostic and Statiscal Manual for Mental Disorders. It was later removed. (quoted from Professor Michael Hill)
Therefore, psychological disease or not, whether someone is sick or not can sometimes be socially constructed. People who are not comfortable with homosexuality may see it as something ‘wrong’ and therefore consider it a disease? I am of course not taking such a stand. However, my point is that what is considered deviant in society is pit against what is considered norm and those norms can be fluid as well.
On another note, if I may air my concerns. I think while it is attractive to have an ‘us’ against ‘them’ debate, with radicalisation of ideology, it may perhaps lead to less than desirable results (I am of course referring to the French Revolution and the Reign of Terror). When we have 2 camps, the boundaries are clear. Along the same lines of argument, if boundaries are marked, then the crossing of those boundaries becomes even starker which can make mutual understanding something of a boundary crosser and can perhaps deter people from going in to understand the circumstances that. Like the Reign of Terror, people become paranoid of each other and take drastic actions which can lead to tragic ends. (sounds far-fetched? I think so too, but the lessons we can take away from this is perhaps important as well and shouldn’t be ignored.)
What I am basically saying is that we should seek other means of reconciliation on this matter. The key issue is that it is precisely we do not know enough of homosexuality and how this affects humans as a species, which is why society at large is finding it difficult to open their arms.
Before new media, when one needs to find information, they go to academia or monasteries (yes, they were used to store information in the past). However, today it is convenient to obtain information which can be distorted and even fallible. Which leads to all sorts of misconceptions that propagate through influential people like Rony Tan which can result in detrimental consequences. My point is, people simply do not bother with processing the integrity of what they read or hear anymore.
So yes, finding out more and research is the way to go. Maybe they should start paying professors more? HAHAHA…
[...] the bashing [Thanks A. Noni-Mity] – Singapore Life and Times: Flogging a dead horse – Kennethism: Pastor Rony Tan of Lighthouse Evangelism needs to apologise to gays and lesbians too [Thanks Kenneth] – The Temasek Review: Aftermath of Rony Tan fiasco: ISD shouldn’t be policing [...]
[...] SC.Related blog postsSenior Pastor Rony Tan And Buddhism
Ps Rony was just speaking the truth. It’s just that the way the whole thing was presented was wrong. Sometimes the truth hurts, but it gets you thinking. The Bible is clear that homosexualism and lesbianism are sins. Any Christian worth his salt will know that. God hates sin, but He loves the sinner. That’s why He sent His Son Jesus Christ to die for your sins. If you will just humble yourself and believe and receive that, your lifetime of sins are forgiven. Best of all, He gives you His own righteousness as a gift, and you are righteous forever. That’s the good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ!
@Andrew: You’ve totally lost the point of my article. And it’s sad.
Sex is real when its between a man and a woman. Homosexuality is pretending to have sex. That is why it is unnatural and it never satisfies. If they claim satisfaction then its because either they have never enjoyed the real thing or because they have brainwashed themselves into loving the counterfeit. They get very angry when people tell them this.
Why?
It is hurting for somebody to prick their make believe balloons in which they live their lives. They create a different lifestyle and community. Left to their own this community will be barren and die out in one generation but they do not want that to happen. So what is the next thing to do? In order to survive they want to become mainstream, create alternative families styles so that they can adopt children from outside the balloon and teach those children to embrace their lifestyle. In this manner their community can survive. I am not saying they are planning this but this is the inevitable course this community would want to take.
They are a very pitiful and miserable people.They want love within brackets. But what they need is a heavy dose of reality, not the soapy, wishy washy love that they demand. Hard love that is able to poke the balloons, they are living in, so that they can realize that they are missing the real boat and are really pretending and therefore dying.
Andrew Tan
Please dont quote me the bible. Not everyone believe in it.
Trust me i know what is the bible, I am an EX-Christian and proud of it.
But back to your statement of Rony Tan speaks the truth bit.
Does it include homosexuality = beastiality & peodophilia?
Let me counter that with an example. Since there are so many scandal of Church Clergy abusing children.
Can we conclude church clergies are all potential peodophiles?
Misinformation and baseless assumptiosn are easy way to end an arguement, provided if others don’t do a background check on the facts.
@Landmine: The American Psychiatric Association was “persuaded” to define homosexuality as normal???? What planet are you on? China, where I’m living has also long taken homosexuality off its list of psychiatric disorders. Would you also suggest that China did so because of the gay lobby?
What is coined as normal? Who coins normal? People. And if people are bashing what they FEAR and DO NOT UNDERSTAND, then whatever they don’t is abnormal? That’s nonsense to me.
So if homosexuals are one day going to be the majority and heterosexuals the minority, does that mean that heterosexuality is ABNORMAL? Does mean that the rest are this way means that the other party is abnormal.
I’m so glad that Kenneth put this up and I agree with his arguments. Well, I can’t make people agree too. Those homophobics are just afraid that one day, their “power” and “supremacy” will be threatened and that they will be made ABNORMAL.
And if homosexuality is a choice, who on earth would be dumb enough to stand on the side of being discriminated again and again, unless they like it? Since when is homosexuality a disease? Why is it coined a disease? Who coined it? PEOPLE! Fearful people!
So what is this dear pastor going to do? Burn all the homosexuals like in olden times when they burn witches? What’s this? Burn and bash everything that you’re afraid of and cannot control? Anything that isn’t going YOUR way?
Am so fed-up by his childishness. Grow up!
i’m sorry, this is going to be an emotional argument.
not all churches and pastors are like this. i can’t tell you how many pastors are like or not like him, but believe me when i say that my pastors will never bash religions and other people, because i will walk out once they do. (like i’ve walked out of the church in question). christianity is alot more than this.
this is one of the worse examples. let us also look at the other end of the spectrum.
Greetings to one and all. I’m from Singapore, have no religious affiliation and am a hot blooded male with a constant desire to mate with human females. I’m not against any religion but I am an advocate of love, peace and happiness.
Taking religious beliefs and practices out of the picture, allow me to ask this,”What is wrong with homosexuals?”
Is a gay person any less human than you and I? Do they have 1 eye, 6 arms or maybe 4 breasts, 3 penises and 2 anussen?
Is a gay person any less capable as a worker, manager, leader or contributing member of society (other than gays couples do not procreate)?
Is a gay person any less deserving to be my friend? Do my gay friends lust after my butt or will I become an uncontrollable sex fiend lusting after other male butts?
Are gay people more likely to commit crimes compared to the straight folk?
The answer my friends to all of the sub-questions above is very simple. NO.
What then?
Some say that homosexuality is not natural.
There’s a post very early in the thread that cites that homosexuality does exist in the animal kingdom. I for sure know that my male dog does try to hump every other dog he meets, regardless of gender :-)
The objective of every species is procreation.
Our planet is suffering from pollution and overpopulation. Isn’t it great if some individuals choose to forgo this opportunity to go forth and multiply? It would help a small extent to lessen the burden on our beleaguered planet :-)
Jokes aside, the next valid argument against homosexuality would be, “because the bible says so”
I personally believe the christian bible is flawed and not of divine origin, but I digress for this thread is not about the validity of the bible and christianity.
For the sake of argument, let me assume that the christian bible to be the absolute truth.
Does the bible specifically place homosexuality above other sins like adultery? No it doesn’t.
Hence when we discriminate against homosexuals shouldn’t we then discriminate with the same ferocity against a person who screws around or men who visit prostitutes? The truth is we don’t.
The bible also says that we can’t work on the sabbath (which I assume to be sunday) Hence working on Sunday is a sin. Similarly, since it’s not specified that homosexuality is a greater sin than this, that places all your insurance agents, property agents, retail staff, restaurant workers and basically everyone in the service industries up there with all the gays in the world. We’re all condemned.
It is a fact that there are churches for gays. There are also churches with openly gay leaders. Do these churches and congregations worship a different God? I don’t think so.
So will these congregations burn in hell come judgement day? I don’t think so too, since a sinful person who accepts God even just a second before he dies is eligible to enter heaven, shouldn’t a gay person who worships the same God all his life be entitled to enter heaven too? So tell me now, what’s wrong with being gay?
I started an online petition:
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/pastor_rony_tan/
to call for just treatment of Rony Tan in accordance to the law. The main message is that no one is above the law. Apologies can be presented in a court of law to plead for a reduced sentence, but never to pardon a crime.
While this is separate from the LBGT issue, it may interest your readers.
How could I download the video clips?
Anyone could advise? Thanks.
@kennethism
Just to clear some things up,
In the bible, homosexual acts are condemned in the Old Testament and the New Testament. There are no verses that claim homosexuality as acceptable anywhere in the bible, only verses listing it as an abomination to the Lord and as a form of sexual immorality. Any argument for homosexuality from a biblical perspective merely tries to dispute the verses that speak out against homosexuality or say that is ‘out of context’.
Shellfish and pork were laws laid out to protect the Israelites in the Old Testament because inadequate preparation of the meats can lead to diseases. Since Jesus’ death on the cross, Christians believe that we are bounded by the new covenant which is in Jesus’ blood shed on the cross. Paul said in the New Testament that a man is not defiled by what goes in but by what comes out. The pharisees used many Old Testament rules to corner Jesus in his teachings only for Jesus to reveal what is on their hearts.
The thing about mixed fabrics is just ridiculous. It is merely like a proverb and not a rule. Go read it in detail again. Lev 19. The “prohibitions” against mixed fiber cloth and sowing a field with two different seeds weren’t even prohibitions for the Jews, let alone Christians. The last 3 injunctions are ancient agrarian proverbs that just mean don’t mix things that don’t mix, in this case, the laws of God with the customs and laws of heathans.
Concerning polygamy, the bible was silent in the Old Testament. Great people for God were polygamous resulting in consequences. Hagar brought a lot of trouble to Sarah and Abraham, David’s children killed one another and tried to kill him. Solomon’s many relationships brought idolatry into Israel etc. The New Testament however is clearly against polygamy. In Paul’s writings, it says a man should be the husband of one wife.
It is not scientifically proven that homosexuality is innate (at least not credibly). Studies, I believe, are still on going but as with every who has done research presented as a paper of scientific study, these studies can be tampered with to present an ‘outcome’ favorable to what the researcher wants to prove. Neither has it been proven that homosexuality is purely an effect of an experience. I do not know if there will ever be a conclusion concerning this issue.
Increasingly, people are debating the possibility for certain theories of evolution and creation to co-exist. While the main disputes remain the age of Earth and origins of man, creationists firmly believe that the Earth is roughly somewhere between 6000-10000 years old and man of course was created by God. Interestingly, scientists for evolution and scientists for creation are presented with the same evidence but interpret ages of fossils very differently. And, if man came from monkeys, while the monkeys are still around today and so are we, where are all the in-betweens?
Lastly, we will never know the right answers for sure. Everyone will believe in something they want to believe in. Christians try to live their lives according to what God has said in the bible and others in accordance to whatever religion or non-religion they subscribe to. Just because Rony Tan came out (no pun intended) to preach in the confines of his own church about his, and hence Christianity’s, stand on homosexuality, who are you or we to judge him? Granted that some comparisons made are insensitive on his part but those were merely views from his perspective expressed in a private place.
Likewise, anyone who is pro-homosexual can ridicule him and call him names. When Christians are ridiculed for being too traditional and narrow minded in their beliefs, whose standards are we following? In Rony Tan’s case, he is imposing a Christian moral yardstick on Christians and that’s it. He’s not even going near imposing them on other people.
Leave him alone.
@ Jeremy
” In Rony Tan’s case, he is imposing a Christian moral yardstick on Christians and that’s it. He’s not even going near imposing them on other people.
Leave him alone.”
Chinese wise man say 一人做事一人当 (a man is responsible for his own actions)
If Pastor Rony dares to speak up against Buddhism, Taoism and LBGT, he should know and be prepared for rebuttal from these respective communities. Furthermore, his comments were inflammatory and insulting.
If your home was ransacked and burned down by a burglar, are you going to just say forget it?
@ Jeremy Wee
You said: “In Rony Tan’s case, he is imposing a Christian moral yardstick on Christians and that’s it. He’s not even going near imposing them on other people.”
I think not. The ex-monk / ex-non / ex-lesbian videos were all recorded in his Lighthouse Evangelism’s miracle services which are evangelistic in nature. This was clearly not a message “just for the congregation”.
On 02.10.10 Chloe wrote these pithy words:
1)Has anybody considered that Pastor Rony Tan could have been demonised unfairly for sharing his own faith?—-Unfairly? he bad mouth/making fun of other religion and shouldn’t be demonised??
2)As a practising Christian, he has a right to defend his beliefs.—-DEFEND BELIEFS BY BLASTING OTHERS BELIEFS?? So what you are saying is that it is ok to bad mouth/bring down other religion/beliefs to defend his beliefs BUT IN THIS CASE WHO IS HE DEFENDNG FROM??
3)Use a simple analogy to keep the discussion above emotional outages: a Nikon camera user will have negatives to say about a Canon user, after all the decision was made after evaluating the pros and cons. Will Canon call in the cops and sue the Nikon user for defamation and libel?—Nikon vs Canon will not results in “WAR” between the two users…but how many “WAR” started because sensitive issues/incidents between 2 religion??
@sophiasocrates
I’m curious, what kind of sex are you talking about? I assume you are talking about very straightforward, tab a – slot b sex between a man and a woman. What about other sexual positions, though, between a man and a woman? Oral or anal sex or even a handjob, would those, in a heterosexual relationship, be ‘real’ sex?
If you say yes, though, then you will be seen as implying that sex is only ‘real’ when there is attraction, physical and/or otherwise between a man and a woman. So if this definition of ‘real sex’ is based on attraction, then how is it logical to say that a gay man, attracted to another man, cannot have ‘real sex’?
If you say no, then would I be right in assuming that you think a large number of heterosexual individuals, who engage in oral sex etc. are not experiencing ‘real’ sex, and are deceiving themselves into deriving pleasure from these acts?
You say that they want to become mainstream and thus adopt alternative lifestyles. This seems a bit confusing to me.
And anyway, your whole definition of love seems to revolve around procreation and the building of a family. Please correct me if I’m wrong about this. If I am not, then what about heterosexual couples who are unable to have offspring? What about unmarried singles, or couples that choose not to have children?
Again I am rather confused by your argument, you argue that homosexuals are not experiencing real, hard love. What is love, to you? What about the various complicated relationships that exist in the world today? How would you fit them into your definition?
Dear all,
While we are here “killing each other with our words” and fighting about real or “unnatural” sex, shouldn’t we channel these energy on more “positive” issues eg. The inhumane treatment on animals, which may actually make a difference or rather make this world a better place faster than the barrenness of GLBTs, can cause any impact on the world. All those cruel acts committed by us HUMANs regardless of sexual orientation or religion, killing/destroying GOD’s creations, is as much a “SIN”, in my opinion, a bigger one.
A joke it is. We are condemning on how humans LOVE instead of condemning on how humans KILL.
Thanks for uploading the videos…it goes to show how Rony Tan and many other prophets have spread false ideas about the other peaceful religions, and now the LGBT community. They are fearful of changes and different ways of life, in turn influenced others to be like them too in the name of GOD . If their healing is so miraculous….why ain’t they focusing on more urgent issues like global warming, cancer, violence, gambling, corruption among charitable / religious /business organisations..etc!
.In fact,everyone’s focusing on issules like global warming,illness,3rd world countries and the like,Churches does changes people for the good as long as u have the faith to believe in it.Govt spend millions into trying to stop golbal warming. counselling for gambling and violence and for cancer, developments and research ARE going on to find cure for cancer and AIDS.
for funny isit that, ppl dont believe in God/Christ and ask ‘why is the world broken?’
@ jeremy wee
So you are willing to partake in the cultural and traditional aspects of religious texts like the parts on polygamy and shellfish instead of taking it word by word; but not willing to give the same treatment to the texts on homosexuality? No one has yet been able to give the definition to what you call “homosexual acts”. By the current definition eg oral sex, most heterosexuals are actually homosexuals.
You also seem to be completely unaware that homosexuality already is almost proven to be innate with minor environmental factors; this is the medical norm that is totally at odds with… you guessed it, Christian biased science….
You also fail to recognize that what Rony Tan did was misinformation and misrepresentation of the homosexual community. It is also called disrespectiog people. Really, how do you feel if someone calls your love and life with the person you case for comparable with child sexual abusers and animal fetish sex abusers? Really!
I think I understand now why not much people are willing to engage in your form of ignorant thoughts masked in diplomatic speak.
@zlotnik
I think your juxtaposition is a little severe. But if you likened this to someone insulting my parents or family – yes I’ll be pissed off but an apology will probably set things straight. live and let live.
That being said, I am on Rony’s side concerning his stand but I do think he should apologise.
@yuki choe
You have misunderstood me. Shellfish and pork were forbidden meats only mentioned in the Old Testament. After Jesus died on the cross, many believers/Jews were unsure of whether to continue following those rules causing rifts in the early churches. Paul, in 1 Timothy 4, rebuked doctrines that forbid marriage as well as certain foods. Jesus also declared all foods clean in Mark 7.
With regard to mixed fabrics, mixed seeds and ploughing of land with unequally yoked animals, these 3 injunctions were merely proverbs. They were not supposed to be rules for the Jews, let alone Christians.
Concerning homosexual acts, the definition is clear in the bible. Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman. Paul also lists clearly homosexual acts as a form of sexual sin in the New Testament.
These are not not merely traditions and cultural aspects, not something I pick and choose to say but what the bible says.
And how has homosexuality been proven as innate? What are your sources? All I’m trying to say concerning this is try not to believe simply whatever ‘scientific study’ you may come across, but do conduct background checks on the researchers involved. I have read studies for and against the in-born nature of homosexuality and I do doubt the credibility of the studies.
Lastly, I do take insult in your label of me as ignorant. While I do not require that you apologise, I do take pride in what I know. I did not come forward to engage anyone in a debate nor to challenge anyone, I was just trying to clear up some things people said which I thought were wrong, especially concerning the bible.
It’s a simple logic question. To prove a set (i.e. your bible) is true, you have to prove everything inside is true. Whereas for me to prove it false, all I need to do is to point out one falsehood.” – jem (nicely said)
Strip RT’s intention to propagate his faith’s beliefs, and you get a whole pot of baseless, and sweeping statements justifying his stance. I am not someone of religious faith (i.e., I don’t have a religion), neither am I a homosexual, but fundamentally, he is just selling his case with a very, very weak argument littered with unbased theories of his own. No facts, no right figures, no scientific proof, no correct information but instead, we get a mass of inaccurate remarks. If this is done in name to dissuade followers of a “wrong” path, why in all honesty plant the very idea that you so fouled, in their heads?
To those who said that homosexuals tend to get riled up when things of this nature happen, think instead about why RT didn’t focus on the truths of the Bible – the so-called “correct” way of Christianity -, but instead, chose to debunk something that’s so “wrong” in his mind? What about giving praise to telling the truth, loving the Lord, showering in his love, forgiveness and acceptance? (One of the possible answers: quote from jem)
I am trying to be logical here, but if you ask me, he comes across more as an anti-Buddhism and anti-homosexuality raving ranter, rather than a staunch Christian pastor.
For your information, the Royal College of Psychiatrists, UK, states:
“ Despite almost a century of psychoanalytic and psychological speculation, there is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that the nature of parenting or early childhood experiences play any role in the formation of a person’s fundamental heterosexual or homosexual orientation. It would appear that sexual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment. Sexual orientation is therefore not a choice. ”
Submission to the Church of England’s Listening Exercise on Human Sexuality, Oct.2007.
In other word, the cause of homo- or hetero- sexual orientation is genetic and/or hormone levels in the womb during pregnancy.
People are alway ready to quote the old testament on man lying with man, but ignore a lot of the other inconvenient stuff. In the new testament, Jesus never mentioned the subject, nor did any of the four gospels. In fact in gospel of John, he has a male disciple , “the one that he loved” lying on his breast at the last supper, that he asks his mother to accept as her son when he’s dying on the cross. Paul has been shown to be talking about something other than what we understand as homosexuality, and he was no Jesus by a long chalk in any event. So it is not “fact” that the Bible condemns homosexuality, just someone’s opinion or interpretation, as with so much else in this book.
By the way, Paul said preferably EVERYONE should be single and never have sex (How natural is that? And how long before extinction?) but that if Bishops feel they absolutely have to, they should limit themselves to one wife.
Personally I find Jesus himself a far more inspiring source of love and wisdom than anything Paul wrote, or any of these modern day theatrical so-called pastors who take large amounts of money from the gullible. And on this subject of gay love and sex there is not one condemnation, or even mention by Jesus. So why are some Christians so obsessed with lying about and condemning gays? It’s just their own prejudice coming out.
The Buddha says “Man is a rising animal”. How true….Religions exit for thousand of years to educate human beings that they are human beings and not animals.
What makes a human being differ from animal?
Besides intelligence, true human beings are grateful, kind,loving and protective to all living beings.
The Buddha also teaches “If you see the truth in any religions, accept that truth”
Sins are simply sins regardless how you try to rationale or reason it away. Sins are simple differing degree of bad causes created by bad thoughts, bad actions and bad speech which will eventually resulted in correponding bad effects and sufferings for the sinner and his related loved ones in this lifetime or next. This is called the permanent Law of Causes and Effects .
May I express my personal opinions by application of the above Buddhist truths?
Scientists had proven that AIDs disease started from the African monkeys before spreading to the gays population. How? Animalistic people who probably experimented sex with monkeys carried the AIDs diseases from monkey to man. Then man experiment sex with man through their gay lifestyle disregarding any form of human education, spreading the AIDs amongst gays. Then the bisexual transfered the AIDs to their heterosexual wives. Their wives then transfer the AIds to their innocent children who grow up and didn’t know why their destiny is so bad.
Yes, homosexuality exists in both animals and man (because a tiny minority of the man are indeed animals). The rest of the majority of human beings must wake up and know it is a very bad cause against the Law of Human Nature.
Please stop bashing any religions including Christianity or Buddhism or Islam, all religions contains some degree of truths although some religions contain more truths than others. Eventually they all serve their purpose to remind and educate human beings that they are humans, not animals.
Should human beings deteriorate in their common humanistic values and fail to distinguish right and wrong actions owing to their “new-age”, “modern”. “open-minded”. “liberal” thinking, then we are surely on the quick path of self-destruction of the human race on earth through our deep 3 illusions- greed, stupidity and anger.
Purity your mind of bad thoughts, bad speech and bad bodily actions through your deep study and practice of your preferred thousand-years old religions founded by proven respectable great human leaders!
I am a simple man who lives with simple logic. I have read many accusations of pastors/priest molesting and sodomising young boys. I am told the bible condemns homosexuality. Does that mean that homosexuality taint with paedophilia is ok by the bible? Bible tells us we are all children of Adam and Eve (I hope not frm monkeys). They had 33 children that eventually multiplied to 6 billions today. Isn’t this incest? The first prophet Ibrahim had sex with his maid, produced a child and then abandoned mother and child. He also tried to kill one of his chidren. I dont know which child as there are conflicting accounts depending on which book you read. Some books even tells that his wife was his half sister (is it true?). If that is the behavior of a prophet, then Rony Tan is a saint. That is why I am at the moment 75% Atheist, 75% Buddhist, 50% Muslim and minus 100% christian.
@ John
eh bro ur maths a bit salah la. Percentage of your faith should add up to a maximum of 100%. This is mathemaical truth :)
also u can’t be an atheist (no god) and a Muslim (has god) at the same time.
What I do get is that u r 100% not Christian.
Don’t mind me, just having a bit of fun
@Zlotnik
I am a straight mathematics student. 75+75+50-100=100%.
The various percentages merely means I am still searching. I do not have devided personalities. The minus 100% for Christianity means it has turned me off so much by the Christians I have met in my life. If I have to list the top 100 evil people I have met or known of, more than 80% are Christians. Certainly the top 10 are all Christians. This is my honest opinion.
Just a thought, juses was a fully grown man I believe he never had sex with a woman. He had 12 male disciples that followed him around. What was his sexual orientation?
@ jeremy wee
Nope, I did not misunderstood you. Instead, you are repeating your actions in justifying interpretations based on cultural and traditional aspects of religious texts, as I had mentioned in my first comment. And again you do not give passages that seemingly condemn homosexuality the same equal treatment.
It is ironic that you mentioned…
“Shellfish and pork were forbidden meats only mentioned in the Old Testament. After Jesus died on the cross, many believers/Jews were unsure of whether to continue following those rules causing rifts in the early churches. Paul, in 1 Timothy 4, rebuked doctrines that forbid marriage as well as certain foods. Jesus also declared all foods clean in Mark 7.”
…. then said…
“Concerning homosexual acts, the definition is clear in the bible. Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman. Paul also lists clearly homosexual acts as a form of sexual sin in the New Testament.”
…. you used a verse from the Old Testament as a proof of the “homosexual act” and the Bibles “clear” condemndation based on your interpretation, yet justify shellfish and pork verses with the “Old Testament” thingymajiggy…
And thanks to you, we also now know just how at odds Paul’s words and Jesus’ words are. And by the way, nope. Paul said nothing about homosexuality. It is you who do not wish to check and gather your knowledge into the history of pagan worship and male prostitution of that era. It is you who do not wish to accept that prior to 1949, the word “homosexual” and its variations did not exist in any Bible translations. It is you who insist: “These are not not merely traditions and cultural aspects, not something I pick and choose to say but what the bible says.”, cherry picking perceived verses condemning homos.
As for your question:
“And how has homosexuality been proven as innate? What are your sources? All I’m trying to say concerning this is try not to believe simply whatever ’scientific study’ you may come across, but do conduct background checks on the researchers involved. I have read studies for and against the in-born nature of homosexuality and I do doubt the credibility of the studies.”
I believe you read the commentary about the Royal College of Psychiatrists.
Let us see what the latest evidence says:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14146-gay-brains-structured-like-those-of-the-opposite-sex.html?DCMP=ILC-hmts&nsref=news10_head_dn14146
-Brain scans have provided the most compelling evidence yet that being gay or straight is a biologically fixed trait.-
Of course, you would readily be sceptical about some findings of some European scientists, right? Well, how about a coalition of more than 477,000 medical professionals and psychiatrists, with peer previewed science acknowledged by World Health Organization which is impartial and unbiased? These are the facts:
http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/just-the-facts.pdf
The American Psychiatric Association even released a new full factfile that tracks back and researched all the studies through decades. Why not read this?
http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/therapeutic-response.pdf
Of course, Christian based organizations such as NARTH would readily claim otherwise and stick to their junk science. However, tell me just how easy is it for a heterosexist society to pressure the APA to review their own claims?
Yes, you are ignorant. Please take a look again what you have written. Of course I do not need to apologize for it, but I do respect your critical thinking. However, if you choose to be blind, I rather choose to be silent.
@ Truthseeker
Last I read, HIV/AIDS among HETEROSEXUAL women is on the uprise, there are still NO RECORDED HIV/AIDS TRANSMISSION AMONG HOMOSEXUAL WOMEN aka LESBIANS.
Now stop your rambling and go google up on it. Purity is not for you to judge.
Your gay pic and ‘About’ sheds light on your warped minded useless rantings.
Hey Kenneth. You rock. Ripping the lighthse video b4 ISD can get to them.
If gay-bashing is so universally, religiously, socially correct, why did they panic?
Thank you for opening another floodgate to the continuing expose of Lighthouse.
Oh Andrew ….
Please dont just stop at petitioning against Da Vinci Code ya.
http://unreasonablefaith.com/2010/02/26/mark-driscoll-avatar-is-a-demonic-satanic-film/
The christian fundies want to banned Avatar also, how ah like that?
[...] amassing 15,000 views, Rony Tan’s ex-gay testimony with Cheryl Bachelor which I put up on Vimeo has now been taken down. Apparently what Rony Tan said was too hateful for [...]
pastor rony tan your man of god really i am saying your doing good job..my god give special place in heaven really be bllesed in the name of our lord jesus christ my brother i want to be like you. but gods choosen you. he will lead mightly my brother i am from india pray for my ministry i invite to india please pray for me and my familly.. praise the lord. praise the lord in jesus name. This is the very good time to send this massage we can see nowway days many ways to spreading the gosple but unbelivers they are couldnot read the BIBLE but how we will give gods word i am trying to my levelbest gods word become a every mouth shall read the Gods word amen. we will be blessed in jesus name in my area very critical to find christians all are believing hindu gods now we are spreding the godsple in between hindu people praise the lord Amen. PASTOR JACK B, EMMANUEL CHURCH, D.NO. 3-20, FCI COLONY, INDRAPALEM,KAKINADA 533006,E.G.DIST,AP,INDIA